DIY 1 to 1 fixed focus 14x17 box portrait camera questions [Archive]

Tin Can

18-Jun-2013, 16:22

I recently became aware of the Big Shot Polaroid and have one coming soon. I understand it is fixed focus and one does the focus with your feet, in the 'Big Shot Shuffle' manner. http://www.polaroidland.net/2012/06/30/instant-artifact-the-big-shot/

I want to expand/upsize the concept to 14X17 X-Ray film.

I have no problem with making DIY film holders or GG, and would, make the box from glued up foam core and wood strips.

The idea would to make the box exactly the right length and mount it on something adjustable, like an old enlarger rack. Obviously a studio rig.

Then adjust focus by moving the whole box.

I like the idea of portraits reflecting actual head, hat and hair size, giving an image series a more realistic range.

Perhaps use a 19" Artar or maybe, a Kodak Portrait 305 mm. Whatever covers, maybe Reinhold's next lens.

Is this possible? Is it a bad idea?

Has it been done?

Dan Fromm

18-Jun-2013, 16:42

The lens will have to cover ~ 300 mm at infinity. Many, many candidates. I'd use a process lens, speed isn't needed, a small aperture is.

Focusing issues. Camera on wheeled stand.

DoF issues. At f/90 set, f/180 effective, resolution on film will be no better than 8 lp/mm, i.e., maybe good enough for contact printing, but DoF will be only 45 mm.

You'll need long exposures or bright lights (continuous or flash) and, probably, fast film.

Don't waste time asking what to do or theorizing, just do it and see whether you like the results. Foam core and lath are certainly cheap, so is x-ray film, and process lenses aren't that expensive either. Shutters, if you'll need timed short exposures (you will) are another issue.

Tin Can

18-Jun-2013, 17:00

Thanks Dan,

I have nearly everything here now. Enough to experiment for some time to come.

DOF will be fine, I'll use studio flash, I can setup serious firepower with a darkened studio and a lens cap. If fact my entire studio is under red light with no light leaks.

Last night I read Kodak's old manual for their Portrait lens', focus on the nose is my take away.

I really need to make a lens decision first.

I like to roll ideas out there to see what people think.

The lens will have to cover ~ 300 mm at infinity. Many, many candidates. I'd use a process lens, speed isn't needed, a small aperture is.

Focusing issues. Camera on wheeled stand.

DoF issues. At f/90 set, f/180 effective, resolution on film will be no better than 8 lp/mm, i.e., maybe good enough for contact printing, but DoF will be only 45 mm.

You'll need long exposures or bright lights (continuous or flash) and, probably, fast film.

Don't waste time asking what to do or theorizing, just do it and see whether you like the results. Foam core and lath are certainly cheap, so is x-ray film, and process lenses aren't that expensive either. Shutters, if you'll need timed short exposures (you will) are another issue.

SergeiR

19-Jun-2013, 07:36

Wish i was as handy as you, Randy.. i'd love to do something like that, but holders are stopping me.. :( (gg - not so much, its just grinding)

Tin Can

19-Jun-2013, 09:18

I did some experimenting last night with a Kodak Portrait 305 on my modded Levy 11X14. That lens can cover some area! Now I think I will make a 14X17 extension back for The Levy. At one point I was considering hanging a long lens cone on the front of it. It is very strong since I fixed the front standard screws with 3" deck screws making it very sturdy. I can now hang anything on the front and the back standard is extremely stable. I have added 1/4X20 threaded steel inserts to the body for mounting accessories. I can hang studio lights off the front standard.

In this thread, I detail holder mods, very simple to scale to any size. Of course it helps to have the massive Levy single side holder with darkslide to work with. The funny thing is, nearly every Internet post about The Levy says junk it, it is too heavy and not good for anything. I find it pretty darn nice. Front focus is done with worm drive from the rear and it does have front rise. This thing can also do wet plate.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104102-Levy-Process-camera-11x14-DIY-film-holder-mod

Wish i was as handy as you, Randy.. i'd love to do something like that, but holders are stopping me.. :( (gg - not so much, its just grinding)

DrTang

19-Jun-2013, 12:02

once you saw the rangefinder deal off the Big Shot..you can open it and it has a couple screws for adjusting the mirrors - so you can adjust them for distance to some extent if needed

Tin Can

19-Jun-2013, 12:26

I am trying to wait patiently for my free Big Shot, I love my little battery run sawzall, really good at chopping up everything...

once you saw the rangefinder deal off the Big Shot..you can open it and it has a couple screws for adjusting the mirrors - so you can adjust them for distance to some extent if needed

Minhhich

20-Jun-2013, 08:33

What kind of lens will cover that film size?

Tin Can

20-Jun-2013, 09:13

I think a lot of lenses. Right now I am checking out a Kodak Portrait 305/12". Wide open, it shines brightly well beyond that size. I am not used to it's OOF or softness, but I will shoot it soon. I also have a 16, 19 and 30" Artar to try, so I will find something to use. Now I am just staring at GG, actually for hours as I set up LED lights and leave the shutter open while I do other things nearby. Almost like having a TV on!

The Kodak at 1 to 1 is very close to the target and may be too close for comfort.

It's all an experiment.

What kind of lens will cover that film size?

Jim Fitzgerald

20-Jun-2013, 09:30

Randy for portraits on my 14x17 I use my 15" Darlot or my Voigtlander Portrait Euryscope III # 6 which is 16 1/4". One Petzval and one RR. When you are in close a lot of lenses will cover. What DOF and speed do you want becomes the issue. Plate work??? Then an F-4 is good. For x-ray film you can get away with F-9 or 11 and some good light. 14x17 portraits are nice especially carbon prints.

Tin Can

20-Jun-2013, 09:50

Thanks Jim. No plates yet, X-Ray and contacts prints. For 8X10 I do have a good supply of AZO.

I am not ready to try carbon prints, but hope to be by winter.

Randy for portraits on my 14x17 I use my 15" Darlot or my Voigtlander Portrait Euryscope III # 6 which is 16 1/4". One Petzval and one RR. When you are in close a lot of lenses will cover. What DOF and speed do you want becomes the issue. Plate work??? Then an F-4 is good. For x-ray film you can get away with F-9 or 11 and some good light. 14x17 portraits are nice especially carbon prints.

Neal Chaves

21-Jun-2013, 07:40

Randy,

For studio use, you may want to consider some type of projected beam for focus confirmation rather than an optical split-image RF. I have used the Range Light on my TRF Graphic "Big Shot" a number of times in dim light and it works great. I can see the Range Light through my frame finder, so no switching from RF to frame finder is needed.

The frame finder and Range Light could be a removable attachment for the side of the camera. Once paralax and light beams were set for a given subject distance, set up would only require focusing the lens on the beam projected on a target. The temptation would be to use laser pointers for the beams, but these are dangerous to eyes, so I would try to find something with a low-powered filament bulb. The Graphic Range Light uses a 3V flashlight bulb. The projected images are actually those of the bulb's filament.

Maybe an old Kalart RF with Range Light is what you need. It woud give you both an optical RF you could set to your distance, and a projected beam.

Neal

Tin Can

21-Jun-2013, 08:10

Good idea! and I have a spare focuspot. No laser of course.

thanks!

Randy,

For studio use, you may want to consider some type of projected beam for focus confirmation rather than an optical split-image RF. I have used the Range Light on my TRF Graphic "Big Shot" a number of times in dim light and it works great. I can see the Range Light through my frame finder, so no switching from RF to frame finder is needed.

The frame finder and Range Light could be a removable attachment for the side of the camera. Once paralax and light beams were set for a given subject distance, set up would only require focusing the lens on the beam projected on a target. The temptation would be to use laser pointers for the beams, but these are dangerous to eyes, so I would try to find something with a low-powered filament bulb. The Graphic Range Light uses a 3V flashlight bulb. The projected images are actually those of the bulb's filament.

Maybe an old Kalart RF with Range Light is what you need. It woud give you both an optical RF you could set to your distance, and a projected beam.

Neal

ic-racer

21-Jun-2013, 09:18

I have no problem with making DIY film holders or GG, and would, make the box from glued up foam core and wood strips.

You are going to make a home-made light tight film holder to an exact "T-distance" and a ground glass film back that accepts the film holder to maintain that "T-distance" it then make the rest of the camera fixed-focus out of foam core? In my opinion the GG back and film holder are most of the trouble with a home-made camera. The focus rail and bellows and front standard for a focusing view camera would be pretty simple to make.

Tin Can

21-Jun-2013, 09:56

Yes, most likely using a fold out GG with SS DIY film holders. Those parts will be wood with my design acrylic film slots, and DIY acrylic GG.

To make it really simple, I may use art store canvas stretchers as my wood frames, cheap and square.

I believe ANSI standards are +/- 0.007" or thereabout. That only sounds tiny to non-machinists.

My current Levy SS 11X14 holder has greater variation from the factory.

I was able to calibrate T distance for it easily with depth gauge. It just happened to be 0.750" plus or minus 0.007" The Levy has an adjustable GG, I can move it over an inch and lock it into position.

Also my shooting studio is completely under red light, making X-Ray a doddle.

See my link below.

Simple.

You are going to make a home-made light tight film holder to an exact "T-distance" and a ground glass film back that accepts the film holder to maintain that "T-distance" it then make the rest of the camera fixed-focus out of foam core? In my opinion the GG back and film holder are most of the trouble with a home-made camera. The focus rail and bellows and front standard for a focusing view camera would be pretty simple to make.

Reinhold Schable

22-Jun-2013, 22:06

Some time ago I sketched up a sliding box camera that used bellows from a much smaller (8X10) camera as an focusing extension of a large 2-part sliding box. That way the bellows were of a manageable size. The only problem was that I'd have to reach around to the front to focus it. I'd need arms as long as a gorilla's. On the other hand, it would be a lot easer to rack the bellows for focusing focus instead of the entire rear standard of the camera. Other projects got in the way, and this idea fizzled out.

Here's the original sketch which may give you some ideas...

Reinhold

Tin Can

22-Jun-2013, 22:29

I'm right with you on that, I have a couple backless 8X10's. Now I am doing the reverse, adding a box to the front of my big bellows and fortunately I have rear worm drive front focus.

Pictures soon.

Some time ago I sketched up a sliding box camera that used bellows from a much smaller (8X10) camera as an focusing extension of a large 2-part sliding box. That way the bellows were of a manageable size. The only problem was that I'd have to reach around to the front to focus it. I'd need arms as long as a gorilla's. On the other hand, it would be a lot easer to rack the bellows for focusing focus instead of the entire rear standard of the camera. Other projects got in the way, and this idea fizzled out.

Here's the original sketch which may give you some ideas...

Reinhold

Drew Bedo

25-Jun-2013, 06:35

All this sounds gret. Wish I had the space to dedicate to this yype of project.

How about a few images of the rig and some of the results?

Tin Can

25-Jun-2013, 07:48

Painting the box today.

I don't have the space. my workspace is very crowded.

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All this sounds gret. Wish I had the space to dedicate to this yype of project.

How about a few images of the rig and some of the results?

MMELVIS

26-Jun-2013, 17:59

Randy nice work on the camera. Off topic is that your cafe racer in the background on the light board in the b/w image?

Tin Can

26-Jun-2013, 19:17

I wish, it's a friends, but I have had a few just like it. I had 8 motorcycles in this space last year, sold all but 2 and got serious with LF and now ULF. I'm too old to play motorcycles seriously these days. I think...

Now the box for the camera is painted, and I did some tests today with the new lens.

Tonight I am making an 8x10 reduction back for it, so I can test the lens faster.

Randy nice work on the camera. Off topic is that your cafe racer in the background on the light board in the b/w image?

MMELVIS

27-Jun-2013, 16:21

Look forward to the results

Michael Cienfuegos

1-Jul-2013, 08:32

No results yet?

Tin Can

1-Jul-2013, 09:56

Hit a snag.

My camera is too heavy to be lifted by the ancient Table Top studio stand it came with. As to not destroy that stand, I need to find a new stand. I have a 3" post Semi-Centennial stand but it may be too small also and I do not want to destroy that.

So it's on a workbench, while I find a way.

My stand must be able to lift and angle, as the camera has only one movement, 2 inches of rise.

Also do not hold your breath on images, I will be posting success, not failure.

The 8x10 reducing back is done.

It's a new day, I will post some camera pics in a bit.

Tin Can

1-Jul-2013, 12:25

Here are some pics. It has the new Reinhold 790 mm lens mounted, with 3 SB800's for ring flash. I added eight 1/4-20 Insert nuts for options. The 8X10 reducing back is for testing. I also have 2 DIY 11X14 backs/film holders and will be making a 14X17 extension back.

It weighs 52 lbs as pictured and has 52" extension. The addon extension back will give 10" so I can shoot 1 to 1 with 14x17 for portraits.

The last picture is the Table Top stand the camera came with. It is not up to the job and came to me with some rough treatment damage. I think it is over a 100 years old. I am going to give it a rest and some wax.

I have an Arkay studio stand I may try, but it may not be able to balance the Levy. I'll test first with weights. Actually I have 2, maybe I can make them into a single double post.

This is purpose made for studio portraits. I have a shooting project in mind. Code name "Memory Loss."

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5510/9184525385_9c10cd5b47_b.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5526/9186744194_936c3dfdb5_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7388/9184526315_065178f56a_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2857/9186748666_ec7b9aaa76_b.jpg

Tin Can

1-Jul-2013, 17:06

I put 55 lbs of sandbags on the arm of the Arkay. The locking lever will easily hold that weight, but the balance weight will not lift it. I need to help it a lot to go up. May be very difficult with camera and bellows in the way.

But the stand is stable in all directions with that weight.

so...

Maybe a little winch, not a come-a-long, but what?

I have 12 volt Warn winch...

This is getting crazy!

Tin Can

1-Jul-2013, 17:46

This has 19" of lift. I would need to shorten it some, but it would work. It is overkill, but the price is right. Perhaps I can find a long jack and adapt it.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308305_200308305?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Auto%20Repair-_-Jacks-_-144846&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=144846&gclid=CNOyvobJj7gCFRFgMgodBjgAZw

I told you guys, I am an ex-mechanic.

Michael Cienfuegos

1-Jul-2013, 22:55

I guess you won't be taking it out into the field anytime soon. I can send my son and a few of his hefty roommates to move it for you. Wave a few beers in front and they will be docile as kittens. (He lives somewhere in Chicago)

Tin Can

8-Jul-2013, 10:19

OK Here are some test shots with the camera, using 8x10 back and the new Reinhold 790 mm lens. Obviously lighting and exposure are poor. Straight scans, no PS.

I was looking for softness and sharpness. My earlier tests, shooting the GG with digital showed the supplied f13.5 waterhouse stop to be sharpest at my shooting distance of 7'.

Kodak CSG Green x-Ray rated iso 100. Bellows 45" No movements possible with this camera.

New 12x12 green or yellow lighting gels taped over lens front.

Entire room under red LED safelight. No shutter, pull the DS, wait, trip studio flash.

The very soft ones are wide open, f5.4. The sharper ones are f13.5. One is me. One is Ilko. I set focus to be just in front of nose per Kodak 305 Portrait lens instructions. I'm close.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5506/9239049455_051f981f1c_b.jpg
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/9241830596_7b21f98de9_b.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/9241830510_af4580683c_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7288/9241830972_d414db7464_b.jpg

Reinhold Schable

8-Jul-2013, 16:05

An old trick to measure the depth of focus for any given lens is to photograph a yardstick that is inclined 45° from vertical.
Focus on the middle (18" mark) and notice the focus spread fore & aft.
Since the yardstick is angled at 45° the inch marks are actually 1/2" apart relative to the camera.
After developing the film, one may find that visible focus is not the same as "chemical" (actinic) focus.
This gives a better perception of how much to adjust focus to fall where you want it...

Reinhold

Tin Can

8-Jul-2013, 16:22

I'm sure you have performed those tests a few times.

Obviously I have plenty to learn about how to handle this type lens.

Focus was just one of my many mistakes with these shots, the whole caper was nearly destroyed with my first attempt at 8x10 film hangers in total dark, I also shot some real film, meaning work in the dark, lol.

I will be getting a readable yardstick, these aluminum things are unreadable. I need to find a cheap wood one with big black numbers like we used to use.

Good tip, I will keep at it.

Hopefully this thread is buried enough to keep the hecklers at bay.

Thanks!

An old trick to measure the depth of focus for any given lens is to photograph a yardstick that is inclined 45° from vertical.
Focus on the middle (18" mark) and notice the focus spread fore & aft.
Since the yardstick is angled at 45° the inch marks are actually 1/2" apart relative to the camera.
After developing the film, one may find that visible focus is not the same as "chemical" (actinic) focus.
This gives a better perception of how much to adjust focus to fall where you want it...

Reinhold

Corran

9-Jul-2013, 08:10

Tag!
I like your "ring flash." Creative.
More work than I'd be willing to do, and would take more space than I have. Kudos. I still want to do ULF landscapes someday.

Tin Can

9-Jul-2013, 08:15

Thanks.

I live inside my studio/darkroom, and if I mount that big lens in my only window I will be living inside a camera.

Single retired old men, do whatever they want.

Tag!
I like your "ring flash." Creative.
More work than I'd be willing to do, and would take more space than I have. Kudos. I still want to do ULF landscapes someday.

Tin Can

17-Jul-2013, 17:26

Today I installed a Horseman 4x5 frame to the lens board. I now have 2 old cameras I have done this too. Makes it easy to swap lenses all over the place. The real nice part is the Horseman compendium lens shade then just screws on. I wanted to add a rear mount Packard, but the lens board slides on and cannot have anything extending off the back. I could install one from the back, but perhaps another time...

98978

98979

98980

photoevangelist

17-Jul-2013, 18:58

Wish I could hang out with you, Randy. You seem like a really fun guy.

Tin Can

17-Jul-2013, 19:01

Easy for you to say, you are safely far away.

I have my fun, and really enjoy tinkering.

Now I got to quit fooling around and design my extension back.

Soon!

Wish I could hang out with you, Randy. You seem like a really fun guy.

Tin Can

2-Oct-2013, 14:52

Basicly this project is over. Not completed, but new plans. The Levy has 2 DIY converted 11x14 holders and that's that. Usable as is.

But soon, I will be starting a new DIY thread with 14 x 17 conversion back for Deardorff S11.

The S11 has movements and far more bellows draw.

andrewch59

14-Jul-2016, 18:06

Tin Can

14-Jul-2016, 19:42

Hi Randy, I recently acquired this new to me camera and went looking for reference material to find the original maker. As with lot of examples it has a local makers plate on it but it looks like a Hunter Penrose or similar process camera (please comment if you recognise it), I found your process camera while doing a search and the rear of your bears a striking resemblance. However, mine has a GG with counter weights to lift the frame away, and it has the same clips in the back which are adjustable and it has an adjuster for the registry of the film plane. It has no film holder so am hoping someone can shed some light, perhaps it would take a number of different holders and be able to adjust the registry accordingly??
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It is a lot like mine. I must warn you, while I tried, I moved away from actually using my Levy. It just doesn't have it all. Meaning using it is a pain. I have it carefully stored. and think about it... very seldom...

But, I really like the GG yours has, which mine does not. My clip area is similiar, where I put a GG in, and adapted the 2 holder I got.

BUT again, my holders are most likely made for metal plate, maybe for circuit boards or printing plates. I don't know. Definitely not any good for shooting photographs.

I made an adapter back for 8X10, which works, but as everybody can see in the link, I was early in my learning curve. I suggest you adapt a back or make one if you are handy.

BUT! Maybe it's cheaper to find something else.

Here again are my 2 other threads on this box.

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...Process+camera

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...Process+camera

Good luck. I find these things find me. I tell everybody what I like and sooner or later it all shows up. I have had to stop collecting orphans and am now finessing my process and gear.

I know your continent has a shortage of gear, but it's there, somewhere.

andrewch59

15-Jul-2016, 14:28

Hi Randy, thanks, like yours mine will sit in the corner and look big. It just needed protecting from someone's fireplace, I needed to protect the history.

Tin Can

15-Jul-2016, 17:33

Ya, mine was going to be coffee table but I convinced my neighbor to give it to me. :)

I will do something with it. Given time.

I am getting ready to Magritte this place.

StoneNYC

15-Jul-2016, 18:20

Hey Randy.

I did something much simpler to make it a true fixed focus box camera (it's a cardboard box) and is much lighter.

You could probably just remove the front and rear frames from the body and then add two tripod screw holes to the front and back and a latch to lock the front and back together. Then simply set it up on two separate tripods.

Just a thought.

Here's my simple cheap design, cost $100 in wood parts and gaffers tape.

https://youtu.be/NW4dhOJVfzk

Tin Can

15-Jul-2016, 20:04

Thanks Stone!

I have plenty of work.

Hey Randy.

I did something much simpler to make it a true fixed focus box camera (it's a cardboard box) and is much lighter.

You could probably just remove the front and rear frames from the body and then add two tripod screw holes to the front and back and a latch to lock the front and back together. Then simply set it up on two separate tripods.

Just a thought.

Here's my simple cheap design, cost $100 in wood parts and gaffers tape.

https://youtu.be/NW4dhOJVfzk

StoneNYC

16-Jul-2016, 09:15

Thanks Stone!

I have plenty of work.

Oh I hear you on that front! Good luck! Wish I had one!

andrewch59

8-Oct-2016, 17:37

Hi Randy, You seem to be the local guru when it comes to these large cameras so I have a question. I have just managed to procure a very nice Hunter and Penrose camera which I have a 38hr trip to pick-up and return home, I'm over the moon at finding a big one complete. I have been trying to research half tone printing to try with it, have you tried it?? I have seen it done with screen printing, I don't think it would be too hard to expose onto a xray neg for processing. What do you think?

Tin Can

8-Oct-2016, 17:52