PDA

View Full Version : Pre-wash with JOBO? yes or no



numnutz
18-Jun-2013, 08:16
I have just obtained a Jobo expert tank to develop 5 x 4 film with a CPA2 processor. On reading the instructions(!) Jobo recommend a pre-wash I am using Silverprint Pyro I have never used a pre-wash with this developer or any other developers i Have used in the 40 odd years of processing film.

So before I test whether to use a pre-wash can you advise me if I should use one or not.

I notice in this recent thread http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104401-c41-uneven-development that someone recommends 2 pre-washes.

I will also occasionally be using E6 and C41 processes should I pre-wash these?

I would pre-wash using distilled water

Thanks in advance for any of your observations.

nn :)

vinny
18-Jun-2013, 08:20
I've never had an issue using a prewash. I have had issues when not using one. The people at jobo wrote thos instructions based on practice.

Ken Lee
18-Jun-2013, 08:23
I renamed this thread to include the fact that you are doing rotary processing.

Jim Noel
18-Jun-2013, 08:31
I use a pre-wash with the Expert drums,especially with pyro developers.
I would not use the same drum for C-41 or E6 processing. I reserve all containers, drums, trays, etc which are used with pyrogallol developers for that process alone. I have another set for pyrocatechin developers. Perhaps I am overly aware of cross contamination but I was burned once many years ago and don't want to take a chance.

bob carnie
18-Jun-2013, 08:39
I pre wash Pyro process

I do not for D76, Microphen, or C41.
I use Jobo Rotary.

Mark_S
18-Jun-2013, 08:57
I prewash everything, but have never had good luck doing pyro in the jobo. I had a phase where I experimented with Pyro, and got the best results doing tray development, but ended up moving away from pyro altogether, and back to a traditional (HC-110) developer (in the Jobo CPP).

Robert Hall
18-Jun-2013, 09:27
I prewash everything. 2-3 minutes.

I do PMK and have 0 issues. ( at least with the Jobo, maybe not in my head ) :)

Ari
18-Jun-2013, 09:37
I use two 1-minute pre-washes for all film, regardless of developer or type of tank.

jeroldharter
18-Jun-2013, 09:37
I have always used a prewash with Jobo. Anywhere from 2-5 minutes with water tempered to the same temperature as the developer.

dave_whatever
18-Jun-2013, 10:11
I prewash E6 and HP5+ and FP4+. But with PanF on 120 I found a weird grain mottle clumping which Ilford suggested was down to using a prewash, so next time I use PanF I'm doing it sans wash.

mandoman7
18-Jun-2013, 10:27
Manufacturer's instructions should not be ignored, nor should they be regarded as gospel. There are many variables that may not have been at play when the manufacturer did his testing. The serious photographer must always do his own tests, for that reason, and also to show that he's willing to take the steps to master his process.

I've always pre-soaked in the past, but found the Pyrocat HD works better without it, with some of the cleanest sky gradations I've ever seen from my negs. I often have a little pause before I begin the process, having the habit of pre-soaking long developed in my brain, but then I remember the test results...

Peter Yeti
18-Jun-2013, 10:55
I use pre-wash for all sheet films on a Jobo processor with all developers, including Pyrocat HD, with only one exception: devided developers like Diafine. I never observed any problems with pre-wash. On the other hand, I usually don't use pre-wash for 120 film, which I hand-develop by inversion. On issues either.

Andrew O'Neill
18-Jun-2013, 11:00
No pre-wash for me and pyrocat-hd in BTZS tubes.

Nicolasllasera
18-Jun-2013, 11:09
I prewash b&w in jobo. Using D76 and expert tanks.

No prewash on C41 and E6.

bob carnie
18-Jun-2013, 11:30
I should add that I do one shot on all process, so the need for pre wash(getting rid of the anti halation coating) is not so important to me , If I was running a replenished system I would consider prewash for all films.

Bruce Osgood
18-Jun-2013, 11:48
Jobo has taken a second look at Xtol developer and do not recommend a pre wash.

http://photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=21963784

This is only for Xtol I believe, and it makes a difference.

Lachlan 717
18-Jun-2013, 14:10
I always prewash with B&W.

If for no other reason than to see what colour the water ends up. Efke Blue is my current favourite!

Ed Richards
18-Jun-2013, 14:47
I prewash with Xtol. Had uneven skies when I didn't. 3006 + 3010 drums.

Bruce Osgood
18-Jun-2013, 14:53
I prewash with Xtol. Had uneven skies when I didn't. 3006 + 3010 drums.

That's interesting, I use the 2521 tank for up to six 4x5 negs and not had that problem

Sal Santamaura
18-Jun-2013, 16:25
Jobo has taken a second look at Xtol developer and do not recommend a pre wash.

http://photo.net/bboard/uploaded-file?bboard_upload_id=21963784

This is only for Xtol I believe, and it makes a difference.That link needs further explanation. The full story, and answer to the OP's question, is here:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?84172-XTOL-Pre-Soak-What-gives&p=815973&viewfull=1#post815973

This forum's archive is full of useful information, readily available via Google advanced searching. A secondary benefit of taking that approach -- beyond finding the answers one seeks -- is keeping the archive streamlined and free of redundant threads. Makes future searches quicker and easier.

Kimberly Anderson
18-Jun-2013, 16:44
I pre-wash with HP5+ in PMK in the 3005 drum and have never had bad results with streaking. I will always pre-wash...unless my testing shows me otherwise. ;)

polyglot
18-Jun-2013, 17:09
I don't use pyro, I do prewash, especially colour. Note that prewashing will increase your required B&W development times slightly. C41 and E6 times seem to be calibrated to include a pre-wash, or at least I get the results I expect from using a pre-wash and the times from the instructions in the Fuji kits.

tgtaylor
18-Jun-2013, 17:56
I don't pre-wash C-41, E-6, Ilford B&W (Ilford cautions against a prewash for their films), and all B&W that I rotary process. I haven't noticed anything wrong with pre-wash of B&W except that it will change the development time as Polyglot noted above.

That said, I usually prewash all B&W (except for Ilford) for 2 to 5 minutes that I process by hand inversion. Although this is probably due to force of habit from the years that I processed all B&W film by hand inversion, it does have the advantage of bringing the tank and film to the processing temperature which for me is 68F.

Thomas

Peter De Smidt
18-Jun-2013, 19:22
Ken Owen, formerly of Jobo USA, addressed this question when Xtol came out. (As did Ricki Stauffer(sp?), also formerly of Jobo USA.) He said that Jobo recommended the 5 minute pre-soak because doing so gave generally good results with rotary processing when using film manufacturer's times for inversion processing. Jobo's only claim about the pre-soak was that it helped users get a ball park developing time. They never claimed that a pre-soak was needed for quality reasons. When Xtol came out, Kodak published times for rotary processing without a pre-soak. Ken said to just use those time without a pre-soak. In other words, if you figure out the development time without a pre-soak, the staff at Jobo didn't see any point in using a pre-soak with BW film. I never use a pre-soak when developing bw with my CPP-2, and this hasn't lead to any problems in over 15 years of use.

Sal Santamaura
18-Jun-2013, 19:56
Ken Owen...addressed this question...Yes he did. That's why, just a few posts up, I linked to an earlier thread that linked to Ken's words addressing it:


That link needs further explanation. The full story, and answer to the OP's question, is here:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?84172-XTOL-Pre-Soak-What-gives&p=815973&viewfull=1#post815973...

Colin D
18-Jun-2013, 20:04
I have a jobo expert drum and was advised to pre-wash B&W by someone else with more experience than me. I think the reason was to remove the anithalation before beginning the development, not sure why that was important if at all. Have never tried without pre-soak so can't compare.

I use Tetenal Ultrafin and Rodinal.

Peter Yeti
19-Jun-2013, 04:35
I just remembered the reason why I was recommended to use pre-wash with rotary processing way back when I started it. If you are unlucky, you may have air bubbles forming on the film surface in be beginning and it may take a few rotations before they are gone. This could cause spotty development, particularly with very active developers. The pre-wash has little to do with the anti-halation layer. Pre-wash is not recommended for inversion development because the bubbles are removed by knocking down the tank on a hard surface a couple of times. That's at least how I learned it, which may be outdated.

bob carnie
19-Jun-2013, 04:40
I just remembered the reason why I was recommended to use pre-wash with rotary processing way back when I started it. If you are unlucky, you may have air bubbles forming on the film surface in be beginning and it may take a few rotations before they are gone. This could cause spotty development, particularly with very active developers. The pre-wash has little to do with the anti-halation layer. Pre-wash is not recommended for inversion development because the bubbles are removed by knocking down the tank on a hard surface a couple of times. That's at least how I learned it, which may be outdated.

JeRuFo
19-Jun-2013, 10:06
I pre-wash B/W and C-41. I don't pre-wash E6. That's mostly because I only use my chemicals for two cycles and don't see much problems.

Sal Santamaura
19-Jun-2013, 11:17
...the reason was to remove the anithalation before beginning the development, not sure why that was important if at all...It's neither important nor a reason to presoak. The real reasons are are to bring the film up to process temperature and ensure even developer induction into the emulsion.

numnutz
19-Jun-2013, 17:54
Thanks for all your comments...

I shall start by doing a test run with a short pre-wash of around two minutes and will see how much I should increase my dev time.

nn :)