is 90 minutes a long exposure time for platinum palladium print?

[Pitcherman]

Gents,
i am working my way into platinum/palladium printing. I built a UV exposure unit and am using 8 20-watt BL tubes. I have been doing some 4x5 prints with it and have had some negs that i processed in Ilfosol3 come out really nicely after 10 minutes, but a recent batch of negs developed in Pyrocat HD 1:200 that are printing out at 60-90 minutes. Do these times seem excessively long? As a newby, I read some notes about humidity, but I was wondering if high summer temperature could be a contributor to longer exposure times. On a related note can temperature increase contrast in the final print?
Thanks in advance

Robert
P.S. The dress was a 30 minute exposure and the bride was 90 minutes and to my eye could use still more.

96719
96720

[Vaughn]

If you used TMAX 100, then the long exposure times are due to the anti-UV layer on the film (not on TMAX400).

[Pitcherman]

Thanks Vaughn. I hadn't thought about the film type, but these are HP5.

[Thom Bennett]

That seems excessively long. I'm in New Orleans (high humidity) and my times are usually 10 to 15 minutes under an Edwards exposure box. Not sure of the lamp wattage but they are probably 20 watts. I use HP-5 in PMK. Are you heavily overexposing the negs? Are they really dense?

Nice images, BTW.

[Brian Ellis]

I've never done platinum but I've done gum and VanDyke brown which requires a somewhat denser negative than normal. My typical print exposure times were in the general range of 5-10 minutes using a home-made light box with lights similar to yours.

How far above the easel are your lights? Maybe they're unnecessarily high, which could contribute to your long times.

[Vaughn]

The pryo stain does block UV. I used Rollo Pyro a while back when "post-staining" (putting the neg back into the developer or other alkaline solution after fixing) was still recommended. All it did has add extra general staining that increased exposure times. I suppose an over-exposed neg, developed in pyro would tend to have an excessive exposure time due to excessive staining.

[Pitcherman]

Gents-
96760

The total box height is 71/2 in and the lights are abt 2 in. from the print surface. I have had some really nice exposures in the shorter time frames. I have attached a photo of the negs which to my eye look pretty nice. I guess the highlights are maybe a little dense (i dont have a densitometer) but I was kind of trying for a more contrasty image so I processed at like 12 minutes at 75F. I think I will drop back to 8 or 9 minutes at 75F. But still I dont think they look ridiculously contrasty. What do you think? I know it is hard to tell from a picture.

This is all pretty new to me, and I know there are an awful lot of variables. I was even wondering if somehow I was having some sort of power sag causing my lights to be dimmer.
I truly appreciate the input.

Robert

[Pitcherman]

Vaughn-
Would using the pyro at 1:200 increase the staining?
Thanks,

[Vaughn]

Vaughn-
Would using the pyro at 1:200 increase the staining?
Thanks,

Sorry - that exceeds my limited knowledge of pyro. But from the negs, it does look like you have too much contrast for Pt/pd...but might have a good carbon printing negative (which is not easy to achieve with HP5+).

Visual checks with pyro-devloped negs are difficult due to the stain blocking UV light...UV 'sees' much differently than we do and one can not easily visually judge a pyro neg when used with UV sensitive processes...they are much more 'dense' and contrasty than they appear.

[Pitcherman]

Vaughn-
thanks, I think I will try to decrease my development time to pull those highlights back in. the problem is in getting detail in the most dense areas of the neg. I was definitely making a conscious to maximize contrast in my film development. So now, if nothing else, I know what "too" contrasty is.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I think I will drop back to 8 or 9 minutes at 75F. But still I dont think they look ridiculously contrasty. What do you think? I know it is hard to tell from a picture.

First of all, in my experience, HP5 is a tough film to print in alt processes when using pyrocat-hd (my experience is with kallitype and carbon printing). As you suggested, try cutting back your development time. 12:00 at 24C is a bit much. I develop for 10:00 at 21C. Sorry, metric up here.

[Vaughn]

Vaughn-
thanks, I think I will try to decrease my development time to pull those highlights back in. the problem is in getting detail in the most dense areas of the neg. I was definitely making a conscious to maximize contrast in my film development. So now, if nothing else, I know what "too" contrasty is.

Good! Crawling up to a point is time-consuming. Often better to blow by where you want to go, then back up. Good luck!

FWIW...a combo I found to work nicely for Pt/pd (thanks to Terry King) is FP4+ in Ilford Universal PQ developer. Flexible and nice tonal range. I vary the concentration (1:9 to 1:19) depending on the contrast range of the scene and the process I will be using (Pt or Carbon).

[sanking]

Vaughn-
thanks, I think I will try to decrease my development time to pull those highlights back in. the problem is in getting detail in the most dense areas of the neg. I was definitely making a conscious to maximize contrast in my film development. So now, if nothing else, I know what "too" contrasty is.

You may also want to make sure you are not over-exposing. Printing times, which are already quite long in alternative printing even with optimum exposure, can really increase tremendously if you double or more the exposure. And too much exposure in combination with too much development, can make negatives almost bullet proof for UV printing.

In general the printing speed of palladium is actually increased with high humidity, which is usually the case in the southeast this time of year.

BTW, what do you mean by a 1:100 dilution? Pyrocat-HD dilutions are typically stated as 1+1+100 or 2+2+100, and so on.

Sandy

[Scott Davis]

Depending on the dilution you're using, 12 minutes @75F is about right for HP5 in Pyrocat HD, for me at least. I've been using it at 1:1:100 dilution with that time and temperature, and FP4+ at 10-11 minutes, and my negs usually print around 6.5 -10 minutes for palladium in summer conditions (higher humidity actually being good for the process, to a point). In winter, I get 20 minute exposures with flatter contrast and grittier looking midtones from the same negative that gives me 6.5 otherwise.

[Pitcherman]

Thanks Vaughn,

I will look into the FP4/PQ developer combination.

Bingo Sandy! I was rating the film at 200 and yes i meant 1:2:100 on the dilution.
You may also want to make sure you are not over-exposing. Printing times, which are already quite long in alternative printing even with optimum exposure, can really increase tremendously if you double the the exposure. And too much exposure in combination with too much development, can make negatives almost bullet proof for UV printing.

BTW, what do you mean by a 1:100 dilution? Pyrocat-HD dilutions are typically stated as 1+1+100 or 2+2+100, and so on.

Sandy

R

[Thom Bennett]

Also, what paper are you using? What is your drop count? Are you using more platinum or more palladium? I've found that it was easy to learn the basics of Pt/Pd but figure it will take me a lifetime to master. It is a beautiful process, though, and well worth figuring it all out.

[Pitcherman]

Yes I am in love with the process. I am using Arches Platine. Na2 Pt/Pd I am using 5 drops Ferric Oxalate and for these I was using 4 drops Palladium and 1 drop of Platinum...and one of tween. It would appear the issue is my negs but I am having a blast figuring out how to make this work consistently. I think that the way my darkroom setup is right now, that Pyro is too touchy. I am getting disappointingly inconsistent results and with all the people in the world that swear by it, the problem must be me or this southern climate.:)

Also, what paper are you using? What is your drop count? Are you using more platinum or more palladium? I've found that it was easy to learn the basics of Pt/Pd but figure it will take me a lifetime to master. It is a beautiful process, though, and well worth figuring it all out.

[Vaughn]

I have not used Tween. It is what is recommended for Arches Platine if one does not use the distilled water pre-coat.

One does not want to solution to go too far into the paper -- if the image is too far into the paper it can not be seen fully. Perhaps diluting the Tween would help? But this is probably not the issue here.

I took up platinum printing when my triplets were born - to save time as I was carbon printing (time-intensive) at the time. The learning curve made the idea of saving time moot, but I am glad that I took it up. Working with its print quality has been very rewarding and enlightening. I print with about 66% palladium/34% platinum and no contrast agent (Potassium chlorate/NA2/dichromate).

[sanking]

Yes I am in love with the process. I am using Arches Platine. Na2 Pt/Pd I am using 5 drops Ferric Oxalate and for these I was using 4 drops Palladium and 1 drop of Platinum...and one of tween. It would appear the issue is my negs but I am having a blast figuring out how to make this work consistently. I think that the way my darkroom setup is right now, that Pyro is too touchy. I am getting disappointingly inconsistent results and with all the people in the world that swear by it, the problem must be me or this southern climate.:)

I live in South Carolina and will assure you that your inconsistent results are not due to the southern climate. Pyrocat was born and raised in the south.

As for pt/pd, it loves southern humidity!!

Sandy

[Vaughn]

How are you drying the coated paper? A hair drier is the worst way -- inconsistent moisture levels and from direct experience, dangerous to one's health.

[Pitcherman]

Pyrocat was born and raised in the south.
I should have kept my mouth shut. We're probably related.
r

[Pitcherman]

How are you drying the coated paper? A hair drier is the worst way -- inconsistent moisture levels and from direct experience, dangerous to one's health.

Guilty, your honor.

BTW–laughs at the switch to Pt/Pd to save time.
r

[Tracy Storer]

@ Sandy, do I remember reading something about bulb output suffering with excessive heat ?

[Doug Howk]

I just use BLB bulbs for exposure. When the neg has DMax of around 2.3 or higher, my times get excessive, eg 50 mins. I therefore try to keep my neg exposures such that they are not much above 2.0 DMax. Of course your use of Pyro complicates matters a bit since would need a UV sensitive densitometer to get an accurate measurement.

[sanking]

@ Sandy, do I remember reading something about bulb output suffering with excessive heat ?

Tracy,

If fluorescent tubes heat up, as they will in long exposures where there is no ventilation, the radiation output will decrease by up to 50% or more in T-12 tubes that are closely spaced. For this reason it is best to install fans at one side of the unit to keep the temperature down.

Sandy

[sanking]

I just use BLB bulbs for exposure. When the neg has DMax of around 2.3 or higher, my times get excessive, eg 50 mins. I therefore try to keep my neg exposures such that they are not much above 2.0 DMax. Of course your use of Pyro complicates matters a bit since would need a UV sensitive densitometer to get an accurate measurement.

With most alternative printing processes exposure time is determined by shadow and lower mid-tone negative density. Adjusting for negative density range and Dmax is mostly an issue of adjusting the process exposure scale for the DR of the negative. With pt/pd this can be done by various means, depending on the specific process mix. Adjusting the mix of platinum is palladium is one method, use of Na2 is another, use of dichromate in the developer another yet. It is usually counter-productive to attempt to correct for very high negative density range with exposure.

Sandy

[Vaughn]

Guilty, your honor.

BTW–laughs at the switch to Pt/Pd to save time.
r

Compared to carbon printing, Pt/pd is as fast as Polaroids...LOL! And I am not kidding about the health hazard of blow-drying pt/pd prints. Platinum dust causes one of the most sever forms of asthma -- a reconized hazard in the platinum refining industry:

http://www.ilo.org/oshenc/part-ix/metals-chemical-properties-and-toxicity/item/183-platinum

[sanking]

I should have kept my mouth shut. We're probably related.
r

Robert,

Vaughn is dead right about the level of difficulty re: carbon printing versus pt/pd. But perhaps you have to have been there to understand!

Have you done any photography on Ossabaw Island?

I am a member of an artist group that visits the island twice a year for a few days. (Ossabaw Artists' Collective (http://ossabawartistscollective.weebly.com/). There is currently an exhibition of our work at the Lyndon House Arts Center in Athens, Georiga, July 27, 2013. I have ten prints in the exhibition, including a few pt/pd prints, a couple of carbon transfers, and a number of inkjet prints.

Sandy

[Pitcherman]

Sandy,
Yes, I have done a little bit of photography on Ossabaw. I have not–nor do I think it possible to do so–spent enough time there. My Dad is an alumnus of OIP and made two extended trips there in, I guess, the 80s, so the island is near and dear to my heart. I followed the link to the Artist's Project and enjoyed your photos very much. Here is a link to a blog post I wrote last fall after the annual pig roast http://rscphoto.net/blog/one-thing-leads-to-another/. I am trying to wrangle another trip over, hopefully, it will be soon.
Thanks for all your good advice.
Robert

[Doug Howk]

Sandy, my understanding is that the negative density range is used as a guide for how the various methods ( eg NA2, Dichro) handle contrast. The DMax is a guide to how long an exposure may be, given past experience with the exposure unit. At least this is how I've been using the densitometer readings. Am I missing something?

[sanking]

Sandy, my understanding is that the negative density range is used as a guide for how the various methods ( eg NA2, Dichro) handle contrast. The DMax is a guide to how long an exposure may be, given past experience with the exposure unit. At least this is how I've been using the densitometer readings. Am I missing something?

Doug,

The negative DR is useful as a guide to determine how we control the contrast to make a good print. See, for example the various mixes Dick Arentz recommends when using the Na2 method. http://www.dickarentz.com/na2.html Same is true with the dichromate control system. And in carbon I control contrast by the amount of dichromate used to sensitize the tissue. But basically these controls do not have a lot of impact on actual printing speed, they primarily control contrast. Printing speed, once we have adjusted the process for the density range of the negative, is determined by how much exposure is needed to produce maximum black in the shadows. Once we determine the time needed to print maximum black with a given process, then we adjust the process (add Na2, add dichromate, etc) so that it can print the deepest density on the negative with some tone other than paper white

Most processes allow for contrast control. Some do not, Vandyke, using ferric ammonium citrate, and salted paper. With these processes you really need to be able to make a negative that is matched in DR the ES of the process, if you don't the only control is printing time, and of course since these are POP processes the longer you expose the print to bring in highlight details, the murkier the shadows get.

Sandy