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View Full Version : Using Horseman 980/985/VH-R to shoot 4x5: experiences and advice please.



MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 05:37
Hi, been struggling a little working with a Crown Graphic over the last year. I like the extra quality 4x5 gives me over 120 film, and wish to continue with LF, however the fact that lenses cannot be easily and quickly changed on location, and the almost total lack of available rangefinder cams on the market, means I've come to the point where I need to trade the Graflex in for something more appropriate to my needs. Although I can't currently afford it, a Linhof super tech V is top of my list. However I recently discovered the Horseman rangefinders and have seen mentioned a couple of times that, with the addition of an adapter, they can be used to shoot 4x5. However I can find very little info about this on the net, so basically I'm wondering if anyone on APUG has experiences of using a Horseman rangefinder to shoot 4x5 that they could share with me? I also have a few specific questions (see below).

(Yes, I know the Horseman rangefinders are primarily MF cameras, but I assume that, as I am asking about using them as LF cameras, I havent fallen foul of LF-Forum rules by posting this here...please accept my apologies if that is not the case though).


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Everyone wants different things from a camera, so first off I guess it makes sense to list my needs:

To work exclusively handheld, focusing only with rangefinder, never groundglass. I'm also unlikely to ever make much use of movements.

As I'm working hand-held, obviously weight is an issue up to a point, but at the same time I mostly use the camera for environmental portraits (i.e. I'm not a street photographer who spends days on end hauling the heavy camera around the city) and so I can put the thing down when I want to take a break without risk of missing a shot (though I'm not exactly physically well-built, and anyway I travel overseas a lot so it makes sense to keep weight down just to avoid baggage problems).

My priorities when working are speed in composing, focusing and shooting, and ease of movement within the environment (so I can follow 'action' and drastically change POV and composition accordingly).

So my reasons for considering a Horseman are: lightweight, small, ease of changing lens in the field, availability of rangefinder cams, large built-in viewfinder, cheap, well-made.

Not sure that it makes much difference to the discussion, but 80% of the time I work with studio flash (on location).

I have almost 20 years experience of working in this way, know exactly what I do and do not want from a camera, so while I can appreciate that suggestions such as 'you'd be better off just using roll film" or "LF was designed to be used on a tripod, with time and deliberation" may be totally well intentioned, they'd fall on deaf ears as I have absolutely no desire to change my working methods at this point in time.

As a side note, I've also considered the possibility of a Wista RF, with the addition of a Linhof grip. But I'm primarily concerned with info regarding the Horseman cameras here.

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Questions:

First off, what are the limitations of using a 4x5 adapter? For example, does the adapter compensate for any change to film-plane to lens distance, allowing normal use of the rangefinder? Or does the rangefinder become unusable when shooting 4x5?

From what I've read online, I'm assuming that rangefinder cams are not linked to a specific individual lens (such as is the case with older Linhofs), but rather just to that particular focal length (i.e. a 150mm cam will work with any Horseman 150mm)? If that is the case, will the cam also work for the same focal length lens produced by another manufacturer?

I also read somewhere that only 2 different focal lengths of lens can be used with the 4x5 adapter. Is this true? Which focal lengths? What happens if an inappropriate lens is used? Vignetting? I hardly ever use wide angle lenses, so it doesnt worry me if they are ruled out, however I'm increasingly enamored of longer focal lengths, so it would be disappointing if no lens over, say, 180mm can be used (this is one reason why Ive been put off going for a Wista RF, as they are only cammed for 3 specific lenses, none of which are long).

Am I right in saying that the 980/985/VHR use an international graflock back, and therefore (with the addition of the 4x5 adapter) will accept 4x5 Grafmatic film holders?

And what fujiroid holder can I use (presumably any holder that is compatible with an international back?)?

How is clarity/ease-of-use of rangefinder (compared with Speed/Crown Graphics, for example)?

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Sorry for incredibly long post. My thinking was that by providing maximum detail about my needs no one would waste their time replying with irrelevant info, but instead I've probably wasted more of all your time in asking you to read this epic…sorry :(

Tin Can
7-Jun-2013, 07:44
I hate to burst your bubble, but your Crown is the best option.

Horseman MF with 4x5 adapter could be made to use RF, but will be heavy and require sighting in the RF for that purpose.

Grafmatics are heavy, I don't have 4X5 Grafmatics, a 2X3 is 9 oz.

4X5 is not quite 2X the size of 2X3, not gaining a tremendous amount.

RF is the issue.

Weights, as weighed by me right now.

Horseman VHR without 4X5 adapter 4.12 lbs

Horseman HD 4X5 no RF 4.08

Century Graphic 2X3 3 finders 3.06

Speed Graphic 3X4 2 shutters 3 find 3.11

Speed Graphic 4X5 everything 6.05

Linhof Prewar 5X7 GG only 7.09

I don't know what baby Linhofs weigh,but i bet they are not lightweight.

I find my VHR too heavy. I prefer my Century Graphic with wood holders, sheet film is flat, unlike roll film.

3X4 is actually the best of all and Ilford is cutting film this summer to fit.

I suggest a Century, they are really nice.

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 08:06
Thanks for the reply Randy Moe, I'd been looking for a list of comparable camera weights, but with little luck, so thats very helpful. However weight is only one consideration.

Plus, the Crown doesnt do what I need it to do (i.e. I cant change lenses half way through a shoot and still use the rangefinder to focus) so keeping it is not an option. End of story.

As a kind of solution, I was buying a second Crown to use with a different focal length lens, so i could switch between the two, when I realized just how much hassle it is to find graflex cams...and not just to find them but even to work out which is even the correct one for the lens.

Also that means traveling the world with two camera bodies instead of one. Which totally undermines any saving made on the weight front...

I currently use Grafmatics and would not be willing to part with them, as anything else is too slow for my purposes.

As I said, I was kind of hoping for info about using Horseman rangefinders, rather than arguments as to why I'd be better of using something else. This may well turn out to be the case, but I'd like to make that decision based on info about Horseman cameras themselves. Have you used yours with 4x5 at all? If not, why not? Purely because its too heavy? It sounds like you favor roll film anyway though, right?

Sorry, that last paragraph sounds a bit ungrateful. I dont mean to be, just hoping not to end up with a thread full of people urging me to use their favorite camera, but rather some info about one specific camera, about which I know very little.

Thanks again

Tin Can
7-Jun-2013, 08:15
Where did i say I prefer roll film?

'I find my VHR too heavy. I prefer my Century Graphic with wood holders, sheet film is flat, unlike roll film.'


I don't use a VHR for 4X5.



Thanks for the reply Randy Moe, I'd been looking for a list of comparable camera weights, but with little luck, so thats very helpful. However weight is only one consideration.

Plus, the Crown doesnt do what I need it to do (i.e. I cant change lenses half way through a shoot and still use the rangefinder to focus) so keeping it is not an option. End of story.

As a kind of solution, I was buying a second Crown to use with a different focal length lens, so i could switch between the two, when I realized just how much hassle it is to find graflex cams...and not just to find them but even to work out which is even the correct one for the lens.

Also that means traveling the world with two camera bodies instead of one. Which totally undermines any saving made on the weight front...

I currently use Grafmatics and would not be willing to part with them, as anything else is too slow for my purposes.

As I said, I was kind of hoping for info about using Horseman rangefinders, rather than arguments as to why I'd be better of using something else. This may well turn out to be the case, but I'd like to make that decision based on info about Horseman cameras themselves. Have you used yours with 4x5 at all? If not, why not? Purely because its too heavy? It sounds like you favor roll film anyway though, right?

Sorry, that last paragraph sounds a bit ungrateful. I dont mean to be, just hoping not to end up with a thread full of people urging me to use their favorite camera, but rather some info about one specific camera, about which I know very little.

Thanks again

Dan Fromm
7-Jun-2013, 08:15
MB, there have been extensive discussions on www.graflex.org about making cams for top RF Crowns. Have you been there and read them?

Oren Grad
7-Jun-2013, 08:26
For example, does the adapter compensate for any change to film-plane to lens distance, allowing normal use of the rangefinder?

No.


Or does the rangefinder become unusable when shooting 4x5?

Pretty much. You might be able to reset the infinity stops for the longest cammed lenses.


From what I've read online, I'm assuming that rangefinder cams are not linked to a specific individual lens (such as is the case with older Linhofs), but rather just to that particular focal length (i.e. a 150mm cam will work with any Horseman 150mm)?

I'm not sure whether there are differences between different generations of the Horseman/Topcor lenses.


If that is the case, will the cam also work for the same focal length lens produced by another manufacturer?

Not necessarily. Infinity stops can be reset to account for different flange-to-film registers, but actual FL also often varies in different ways from the marked FL. Any given lens might be close enough for you, or it might not.


I also read somewhere that only 2 different focal lengths of lens can be used with the 4x5 adapter. Is this true? Which focal lengths? What happens if an inappropriate lens is used? Vignetting?

Probably, though I don't know which FLs start to get you in trouble. There are two versions of the adapter - a fixed one and a focusing one. The focusing one may have been introduced to address vignetting - it has its own bellows and focusing rails, and makes the camera very awkward to use hand-held. Per Horseman spec, it also adds almost 2 lb to the weight of the camera.


I hardly ever use wide angle lenses, so it doesnt worry me if they are ruled out, however I'm increasingly enamored of longer focal lengths, so it would be disappointing if no lens over, say, 180mm can be used (this is one reason why Ive been put off going for a Wista RF, as they are only cammed for 3 specific lenses, none of which are long).

If you want to go long and still use a RF, a Technika is what you need.


Am I right in saying that the 980/985/VHR use an international graflock back, and therefore (with the addition of the 4x5 adapter) will accept 4x5 Grafmatic film holders?

And what fujiroid holder can I use (presumably any holder that is compatible with an international back?)?

IIRC the focusing adapter back is Graflok; I don't remember about the fixed one.


How is clarity/ease-of-use of rangefinder (compared with Speed/Crown Graphics, for example)?

In both cases it depends heavily on the condition of the particular sample. My VH-R is fine.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it's going to be somewhere between impractical and impossible to use a 6x9 Horseman as a 4x5 RF camera. Save up for that Technika. (EDIT: or per Dan's comment, look into what you can do with telephoto lenses on a Graphic.)

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 08:41
MB, there have been extensive discussions on www.graflex.org about making cams for top RF Crowns. Have you been there and read them?

Hi Dan, yes, thanks, been lurking graflex forum for the last year or so and looked into making cams (or, at least, getting someone to make one for me). I'm about the least technical person in the world though, and havent a hope in hell of ever making anything so precise as a cam.

Actually it was Charles' instructions on graflex.org on how to go about measuring actual focal length of my lens that basically broke the camel's back as far as graflexes go haha. His description of the process was just too much for me.

I just want a working camera that does what I need to do as best as possible, without having to become a technician myself. I appreciate a lot of people get into LF and analog photography precisely because the technical side appeals to them, but I'm not one of those people.

Thanks anyway.

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 08:44
No.



Pretty much. You might be able to reset the infinity stops for the longest cammed lenses.



I'm not sure whether there are differences between different generations of the Horseman/Topcor lenses.



Not necessarily. Infinity stops can be reset to account for different flange-to-film registers, but actual FL also often varies in different ways from the marked FL. Any given lens might be close enough for you, or it might not.



Probably, though I don't know which FLs start to get you in trouble. There are two versions of the adapter - a fixed one and a focusing one. The focusing one may have been introduced to address vignetting - it has its own bellows and focusing rails, and makes the camera very awkward to use hand-held. Per Horseman spec, it also adds almost 2 lb to the weight of the camera.



If you want to go long and still use a RF, a Technika is what you need.



IIRC the focusing adapter back is Graflok; I don't remember about the fixed one.



In both cases it depends heavily on the condition of the particular sample. My VH-R is fine.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it's going to be somewhere between impractical and impossible to use a 6x9 Horseman as a 4x5 RF camera. Save up for that Technika. (EDIT: or per Dan's comment, look into what you can do with telephoto lenses on a Graphic.)



Thanks, that's the kind of info I was hoping for. very helpful.

On the basis of your post, I now consider the Horseman struck off the list of contenders.

Unless of course someone has a different view on some of these points.

But there's enough bad news there to make me run a mile ;)

Thanks again...

Tin Can
7-Jun-2013, 09:02
I just unpacked 4 Mamiya RB DDS sheet film holders. I never knew they existed until I spotted them on eBay.

Mamiya RB can use them and Grafmatics.

No nasty roll film required...

SLR 2x3.

Peter York
7-Jun-2013, 09:34
One option with the top rangefinder pacemaker speed/crowns is to add a kalart rangefinder to the side. With this method you can quickly switch between two lenses. Also, if you are patient and willing to go with the common lenses for these cameras you can find lenses with their cam on ebay.

The best option, though, is a Linhof.

Jan Becket
7-Jun-2013, 12:45
I’ve used a VH-R with the newer 4X5 focusing adapter, which works well and accepts standard film holders, including grafmatics. However, the large adapter makes access to the rangefinder extremely awkward, so the gg must be used to compose/focus.

The Tech III I used for a few years worked beautifully with cams, although a Tech IV would be a better choice. It is still possible to have cams cut and fit by a competent photo machine shop. If you want to work on the tele end of the scale, then the Linhof accommodates far longer focal lengths than either the Graflex or the VH-R. Mine came with a cammed 360mm. In practical terms, if you want a technical RF camera, then you also need the accessory viewer. No sense composing on the gg and then switching to a rangefinder to focus the lens.

Like the VH-R, though, you wouldn’t pick a RF technical field camera if you also want to use wide angle lenses, or want a system that doesn’t weigh like a tank. I travel to Europe with a 4X5 system (3 lenses, 12 film holders, etc.) and migrated to a wooden field camera because of weight issue. As it is, I barely get everything into the carry on. The smaller airlines in Europe have even stricter weight limits for carry ons.

Mick Jagger: You caint always git wat you want.

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 12:46
Peter, thanks for the suggestion. I'd come across the idea of two lens and 2 rangefinders before on graflex.org (most likely it was you?), and, as i could probably get by with just 2 lenses for most purposes, it seems like a v. good idea. The problem is a) it requires finding the extra rangefinder and then fitting it, and then b) getting lucky with lenses and cams (and I havent had much luck in that department so far...I have a 180mm thats been sitting here for some months getting no love).

I'm sure it's not a huge amount of work to fit the extra kalart, and even a technophobe such as myself could probably muster the resolve to do it, but its yet another bit of f$%&¥€g around when really I should be making pictures (it's my job...though recently not a very lucrative one, admittedly). And thats on top of all the other hassles I've had getting a fully functioning Crown kit running up to now.

Basically if there was a nice fully functioning Crown with a 150 and say a 240 lens, with 2 cammed rangefinders, sitting here now, I'd probably be happy enough just to use that and forget the idea of switching systems. But there isnt, and I know that to get to that point will be long, frustrating and tedious, and in the meantime I have projects to finish up.

But yes, the alternative is paying a huge amount of money for a Linhof...and given that even if I do go that route I'm not about to buy a new one, there's no guarantee I wont just end up with a bunch of hassles there as well (perhaps less likely with German engineering, but not out of the question, depending on where I buy the camera from).

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 12:58
In practical terms, if you want a technical RF camera, then you also need the accessory viewer. No sense composing on the gg and then switching to a rangefinder to focus the lens..

yep, using GG is out of the question. And the Linhof multi-viewer looks amazing.




Like the VH-R, though, you wouldn’t pick a RF technical field camera if you also want to use wide angle lenses, or want a system that doesn’t weigh like a tank.


Wide angle I don't care about (a 90mm is already much wider than I like in 99% of situations), but weight can be a pain for sure.

Its likely the price I'll have to pay though...





Mick Jagger: You caint always git wat you want.

"...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need..."

Looks like I need to scrape together some real money for German engineering

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 13:17
Jan, first time round I somehow missed the bit where you said you've successfully used a VHR with the 4x5 adapter. Important information. Thanks.

However the fact that this bulky contraption renders the rangefinder unusable is the final nail in the coffin for Horseman as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, this makes my choice much simpler now (if considerably more expensive), so thanks everyone for your help.

Oren Grad
7-Jun-2013, 13:18
...but weight can be a pain for sure.

Do think carefully about what your limits are, especially if you're intending this for hand-held work. A Technika with all the trimmings - lens, anatomical grip, multifocus finder, holder inserted - will probably come out somewhere in the range 8-9 pounds. (The body itself is more than 6.) I can't safely hand-hold one for more than a few moments at a time.

You can save a bit by skipping the grip and getting by with a wire-frame finder; whether that changes the handling for better or worse is a subjective judgment. But the bare minimum of body + lens + holder is still going to be at least around 7 pounds, or more depending on the lens.

Peter York
7-Jun-2013, 13:54
Adding a Kalart is not difficult provided it is complete and made for the 4x5 Pacemaker. I'm not a technical person and I was able to do it. However I went through the pacemaker manuals from Graflex to make sure every required piece (inifnity adjustment screw, follower arm, etc.) was included in the one I bought (which was attached to a mediocre pacemaker crown). No doubt this sort of thing will take time. It took me about 6 hours to attach and adjust the kalart.

Optars and Raptars often appear with the cam on ebay (check the pictures, a cam is often attached to the back of the lens board via a wire clip-thinggy even though it isn't mentioned in the description). The Kalart can be set for the longer lens; use the top rangefinder for the lens and cam that came with the camera (I bought a speed with the cam for the included 135mm). Know that the Kalart is limited for use up to a certain focal length, around 8.5" See this post: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86798-Kalart-RF-for-203-Ektar/page2&highlight=kalart+max+focal+length

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 14:07
Do think carefully about what your limits are, especially if you're intending this for hand-held work. A Technika with all the trimmings - lens, anatomical grip, multifocus finder, holder inserted - will probably come out somewhere in the range 8-9 pounds. (The body itself is more than 6.) I can't safely hand-hold one for more than a few moments at a time.

You can save a bit by skipping the grip and getting by with a wire-frame finder; whether that changes the handling for better or worse is a subjective judgment. But the bare minimum of body + lens + holder is still going to be at least around 7 pounds, or more depending on the lens.

well, i could look at it this way: the extra expense of getting a linhof will be offset by all the savings I'll make on gym membership ;)

But yeah, good advice.

I've held a super tech 3 before (no film holder, finder or grip though) and it wasnt light. Ive got an audio speaker here which is a little bigger than a viewcamera and weighs 11 pounds. Lifting it isnt a problem, but contorting my body into weird positions in the search of the perfect composition for any length of time with something this heavy in my hands could be pretty unpleasant.

Like I said though, I'm not thinking of walking around with this thing; a few moments at a time (well a couple of minutes, max) without a break is all I need. I have to put it down after shooting 6 sheets anyway, in order to swap over the grafmatic...(and I burn film). And if your estimate is correct a Linhof comes in a couple of pounds lighter, which would make all the difference...

Yes, if you havent detected it, I'm trying hard to convince myself. Doesnt look like there's much other option though anyway. Unless I give up on the idea of long lenses and go for a Wista 45RF. Ive also held one of those though, and it wasnt a whole lot lighter than the Linhof tbh.

MonkeyBrain
7-Jun-2013, 14:20
Adding a Kalart is not difficult provided it is complete and made for the 4x5 Pacemaker. I'm not a technical person and I was able to do it. However I went through the pacemaker manuals from Graflex to make sure every required piece (inifnity adjustment screw, follower arm, etc.) was included in the one I bought (which was attached to a mediocre pacemaker crown). No doubt this sort of thing will take time. It took me about 6 hours to attach and adjust the kalart.

Optars and Raptars often appear with the cam on ebay (check the pictures, a cam is often attached to the back of the lens board via a wire clip-thinggy even though it isn't mentioned in the description). The Kalart can be set for the longer lens; use the top rangefinder for the lens and cam that came with the camera (I bought a speed with the cam for the included 135mm). Know that the Kalart is limited for use up to a certain focal length, around 8.5" See this post: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86798-Kalart-RF-for-203-Ektar/page2&highlight=kalart+max+focal+length

Well, I think even I could find 6 hours in order to fix this problem ;)

I'm going to give this solution serious consideration now. My current crown has a cammed Optar 135. Ideally I'd switch it for a 150mm, and then also add a 240mm, but maybe it'd be safer to keep the 135 on, as some indoor shots would be nigh-on impossible with anything longer.

One slight issue is that I currently use a graflite flash grip (minus flash head) as right-hand grip with electronic shutter. Though I guess I could get myself a Linhof grip and learn to trigger with the left hand instead (as I'd have to if I went with a Linhof kit anyway).

Still, my ideal set-up would be a 135, a 180 and then something like a 360 or whatever. Still got some thinking to do...

Thanks again


EDIT: I started looking at the thread you linked regarding maximum focal length with a kalart. and before I even got that far the talk of calibration problems was enough to put me off the idea again. I really dont want to have to deal with calibration. Ever.

Greg Y
7-Jun-2013, 14:30
"4X5 is not quite 2X the size of 2X3, not gaining a tremendous amount." ( Randy M ) 4x5 is 20 sq. inches of film....as opposed to 2x3's 6 sq. inches. That's more than 3x. I do think the difference is significant. In a pinch I get great results from a Rolleiflex and a Fuji 6x8.....but when it really counts I prefer 5x7. I can see exactly why the OP is looking to use 4x5.