Pyro and Photo Flo

[LuisR]

I am going to experiment with using the Photographer's Formulary 2 part liquid Pyro chemistry for the first time. I ran across information that states not to use Photo-Flo or similar chemicals on Pyro processed films as it will remove the stain. Where I live we have hard well water so not using Photo-Flo will result in water spotting on film. Can experienced users of Pyro shed some light on this? In addition, the PF instructions talk about using a Pyro after bath (meaning after fixing). My understanding was that after developing in Pyro and fixing in PF's TF-4 alkali fixer the film is just washed in water for about 45min. It is also stated that using TF-4 does not require a hypo clearing agent. Can the use of a hypo clearing agent speed up the wash process, and will using this chemical also wash away the Pyro stain? Thanks for your informed comments.

[IanG]

Luis, there's a lot of rubbish written about these issues and saying don't use Photoflow and re-using the developer as an after bath after fixing are some of them. Others are saying don't use a stop bath and only using an alkaline fixer.

I recommend you read Sandy King's article (http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/pyro-staining-developers) on using Pyro developers.

Ian

[Peter Lewin]

Luis, I can only tell you about my own processing; I have been using PMK for a long time, and as far as I can tell, nothing I'm doing has had a damaging effect on the stain. First, Gordon Hutchings no longer recommends the after bath in used developer; it turns out that the after-bath simply increased overall stain, not the image-specific stain that you want. So my sequence is pre-soak - PMK - water stop bath - TF-4 - wash. After washing for 25-30 minutes, I do use a little Photo-Flo in distilled water before hanging up the negs to dry. I had never heard any suggestions to avoid the Photo-Flo. I have never used hypo clear on negatives. The wash time is that recommended by both PF for TF-4 and by Hutchings, who says that 25-30 minutes of washing maximizes stain.

[LuisR]

Ian and Peter, thank you very much for your info. I am leaning towards Pyrocat-HD from Bostick-Sullivan liquid concentrates based of Sandy's article and other forum posts. I do have another question, can it be mixed just prior to using for just the amount needed or does it have to be mixed into a stock solution? I have mixed Rodinal for just the amount needed for many years and it has worked well, hopefully I can do the same with Pyrocat.

[IanG]

Yes you mix just what you need before use with Pyrocat.

Ian

[Gem Singer]

LuisR,

I suggest that you get Pyrocat-HD in glycol from the Photo Formulary. It has a much longer shelf life.

Stock solution comes in two parts. You merely mix one part A with one part B and one hundred parts water to make a working solution.

(ie: 10ml A+ 10ml B + 1000ml water).

Once mixed, the working solution begins to oxidize. Discard after use.

The instructions are included in the package.

[Steven Nestler]

I've been using Pyro with Photoflo for years; no problem.

[D. Bryant]

I ran across information that states not to use Photo-Flo or similar chemicals on Pyro processed films as it will remove the stain. Where I live we have hard well water so not using Photo-Flo will result in water spotting on film. In addition, the PF instructions talk about using a Pyro after bath (meaning after fixing). My understanding was that after developing in Pyro and fixing in PF's TF-4 alkali fixer the film is just washed in water for about 45min. It is also stated that using TF-4 does not require a hypo clearing agent. Can the use of a hypo clearing agent speed up the wash process, and will using this chemical also wash away the Pyro stain? Thanks for your informed comments.

No photo-flo for pyro - Rubbish! And you don't have to use non alkaline fixer either and standard stop bath is fine also. No final soak in used developer and you can use hypo-clearing agent.

Pyro should be mixed immediately prior to development and as Mr. Singer points out the gycol based version is preferred for maximum shelf life.

[LuisR]

Thanks again to all for your valuable info!!!

[LuisR]

While I did see the development time charts in King's article I am curious to what development times for FP4+, PanF+, and Acros 100 in 35mm, 120, and 4x5 others use successfully. Thanks again.

[vinny]

While I did see the development time charts in King's article I am curious to what development times for FP4+, PanF+, and Acros 100 in 35mm, 120, and 4x5 others use successfully. Thanks again.

Massive development chart for starters. You must do your own testing after that.

[Gary L. Quay]

The only thing I've ever seen damage pyro stain in plain old water. I left some negatives soaking in a tray while I developed another batch (because the previous batch was not done washing), and when I turned on the light a small pool of yellow water had surrounded two of the sheets. I never saw that happen before. I've always used Photo-Flo before drying Pyro Negs.

--Gary

[Doremus Scudder]

I believe you have misunderstood. The warning was not to use Hypo Clearing Agent or other wash aids with pyro developed negatives. This will, indeed, remove some of the stain.

PhotoFlo or similar wetting agents, on the other hand, are just fine.

FWIW, I use an acid stop and Ilford Rapid Fixer for my pyro negatives (PMK) and have never had a problem with stain developing.

Best,

Doremus

[IanG]

I believe you have misunderstood. The warning was not to use Hypo Clearing Agent or other wash aids with pyro developed negatives. This will, indeed, remove some of the stain.

PhotoFlo or similar wetting agents, on the other hand, are just fine.

FWIW, I use an acid stop and Ilford Rapid Fixer for my pyro negatives (PMK) and have never had a problem with stain developing.

Best,

Doremus

Actually Hypo Clearing agent doesn't affect the stain. I use an Ilford Toner IT-8 which is a Pyrocatechin re-developing toner and try as I might the stain is unaffected by acid fixers and HCA, on occasions I use Pyrocat HD as the re-developer.

There's two types of stain with any Pyro staining developer, first the stain formed as part of the development process which is additive to the silver left in the emulsion after processing, second is a background stain from oxidised develoer - this is similar to base fog and best avoided as it can be uneven it's not benificial with negatives and you certainly don't want it with prints.

Ian

[Ed Bray]

If using the Pyrocat HD as a 2 bath process it is strongly advised to add a few drops of Photoflo type liquid to Part A to prevent streaking.

[Doremus Scudder]

Actually Hypo Clearing agent doesn't affect the stain. I use an Ilford Toner IT-8 which is a Pyrocatechin re-developing toner and try as I might the stain is unaffected by acid fixers and HCA, on occasions I use Pyrocat HD as the re-developer.

There's two types of stain with any Pyro staining developer, first the stain formed as part of the development process which is additive to the silver left in the emulsion after processing, second is a background stain from oxidised develoer - this is similar to base fog and best avoided as it can be uneven it's not benificial with negatives and you certainly don't want it with prints.

Ian

Ian,

I'm fairly sure that the Hutchings "Book of Pyro" (and other sources as well) warns against using Hypo Clearing Agent and the like with PMK (not sure about pyrocatechin...). Has this now also been debunked? I have never used a wash aid with PMK-developed negatives, so I don't have any personal experience (I'll have to test on a scrap neg sometime). I do know that when I tried to intensify a PMK-developed negative using selenium toner (KRST 1+2), it stripped the stain completely from the image, effectively negating my attempt at intensification.

Anyone out there have any experience with PMK negs and Hypo Clear?

Best,

Doremus

[tenderobject]

Nice thread. I can't wait to try Pyrocat-HD! Hopefully soon!

Is DIY stopbath (1+4 Vinegar+Water) good for Pyrocat-HD? I read someone mentioned using Ilford Rapid Fixer for developed negs from Pyro. Is this fine? This is the easiest Fixer that i could get in Tehran but maybe i could get TF4 from PF if ever i order chemicals. I just don't like paying too much on shipping so i'm looking for alternatives. Thanks guys!

[Scott Davis]

Just use water as a stop - it's cheap, it won't cause any issues with the stain. In the past I used Kodak Rapid Fixer without the hardener, now I've switched to Formulary TF-4. Neither one caused issues with the stain either.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Actually Hypo Clearing agent doesn't affect the stain.

True. I've used HCA and Fuji's QuickWash and have never seen any decrease in stain in negatives developed in pyrocat-hd or years ago when I used rollo-pyro. I have also used vinegar stop baths, citric acid stop baths, homemade fixer, Ilford Rapid fix (you really do not need TF-4), with no problem with many different film types. EFke 25 and their IR film need mild acid stop baths...

[photobymike]

This is from my experience of well.... been over 2 years now





I have been using Pyrocat HD Glycol for over two years and here are some my observations.

1. Use pipettes to measure. This stuff is so concentrated that being off a small amount effects your out come.

2. I presoak for 5 minutes at development temperature. I change out the water 2 or 3 times for the presoak. It is needed to wash away the halation barrier. This has always been important... use distilled water... the PH is slightly acid which is ok... tap water who knows what it is.....

3. Use rubber gloves when handling this substance. If you use it a lot, it can accumulate in your system and be toxic.

4. Use distilled water for mixing. I use distilled water for all of my photo chemicals anyway.

5. The negatives scan really well with my scanner V750 epson. I seem to have a longer dynamic range by at least one stop.

6. I use a Beseler roller for development... but it seems to like stand alone tank with moderate agitation...twirl the reels in my paterson tanks.....4x5 always are rolled....

7. Dilute your Stop Bath... to strong and you get pin holes. Use a stop bath to get the film ready for the acid in your fixer. Some photo guys use just water for the stop bath... but i have found that just a little acid stop works better. i use alkli fixer especially for T-grain films.. for an extra 3 minutes. I have also used Kodak rapid fixer without the hardener works well. Fix for an extra 3 minutes for a total of 8 minutes

8. When you get ready to mix your developer. Roll your bottles of concentrate before using... there seems to be some separation and precipitate on the cap after sitting for a couple of days. Do not shake but make sure concentrate is mixed.

9. Because of the tanning (hardening effect) of the developer it seems the emulsion needs more washing than normal film.... i use very strong hypo clear (Orbit) for 2 minutes each in 2 baths with vigorous agitation.

10. I take the film off the reels and soak for 30 secs in Photo-Flo. Most important; I use distilled water to mix Photo-Flo. If you use regular water or tap water you will see a sledge or slim on your finished negs... The i use a very clean sponge to wipe away the excess Photo-Flo. Sponge not absolutely necessary as negs just take longer to dry

I do all of this and what i end up with is beautiful chocolate colored negatives that scan really well.

Any thing to add to these observations, or maybe some questions.

[Dan Dozer]

Ian,

I'm fairly sure that the Hutchings "Book of Pyro" (and other sources as well) warns against using Hypo Clearing Agent and the like with PMK (not sure about pyrocatechin...). Has this now also been debunked? I have never used a wash aid with PMK-developed negatives, so I don't have any personal experience (I'll have to test on a scrap neg sometime). I do know that when I tried to intensify a PMK-developed negative using selenium toner (KRST 1+2), it stripped the stain completely from the image, effectively negating my attempt at intensification.

Anyone out there have any experience with PMK negs and Hypo Clear?

Best,

Doremus



I've used PermaWash with PMK for years. However, I've always used it so the only thing I have to compare it to is old negatives that were developed before I started using pyro. There is a very definite difference between the old and new. Is the PermaWash taking some of the stain out of the negative? I don't know, but I've never really looked closely before at my negs before and after being in the permawash. Maybe I should start taking a closer look.