Betax Cleaning

[Randy]

I have done a search but can't find exactly what I am looking for - so - can anyone advise me on doing a quick, not to terribly intrusive CLA on a Betax #4? I have been told that one can pretty safely clean shutters that may not be running correctly, with Ronson lighter fluid. If so, would I remove the front cover (4 screws) to get at the movements that need to have the fluid applied? Any tips? Shutter is working but 1/2 sec seems closer to 1 sec, and at times seems to hang open for longer.

[E. von Hoegh]

I have done a search but can't find exactly what I am looking for - so - can anyone advise me on doing a quick, not to terribly intrusive CLA on a Betax #4? I have been told that one can pretty safely clean shutters that may not be running correctly, with Ronson lighter fluid. If so, would I remove the front cover (4 screws) to get at the movements that need to have the fluid applied? Any tips? Shutter is working but 1/2 sec seems closer to 1 sec, and at times seems to hang open for longer.

Yeah, this explains why there are so many shutters smelling of lighter fliud and not working.

Send it to someone like Flutot's unless you have the tools, lubricants, and experience to: disassemble, clean all parts, reassemble lubricating as you go. You'll need: A set of watchmaker's screwdrivers, some tweezers, an ultrasonic cleaner, at least two lubricants- light grease and watch or light clock oil; skill, experience, and a place to work.

[Randy]

I found this site (http://shutter-cla.blogspot.com/) which has lots of info and opinions on shutter maintenance.

Since I don't have much money in this old shutter, so I may take the "best" advice I can glean and just experiment...that way E. von can say "Told ya so!" when I report back about my failures and regrets.

[Tin Can]

Please report all.

I have Betax 5 with stuck blades, but it still looks OK.

I await news!


I found this site (http://shutter-cla.blogspot.com/) which has lots of info and opinions on shutter maintenance.

Since I don't have much money in this old shutter, so I may take the "best" advice I can glean and just experiment...that way E. von can say "Told ya so!" when I report back about my failures and regrets.

[Tin Can]

Found this on your link. It made me laugh and reminded me of Suzuki motorcycle school in 1979. They had piled 3 different new completely disassembled engines in a heap. 4 strokes were new to Suzuki then. I was the only one to get a twin running. Idiots chose 4 cylinder engines.

"The second is the dissassembly of the entire shutter, clean it and then
reassembling and adjusting the escarpment to accuracy. An ex Graflex
salesman said during training, Graflex brought the sales people up to
Rochester for 'boot camp' During one day they had everybody sit down
infront of a Graphex shutter and a bunch of tools. "Dissassemble and
reassemble in 1 hour There will be a test on the accuracy of the shutter
after that." After 1 hour most men (they were all men then) didn't have
half the parts back in, which is what the brass expected. After berating
them, they gave the moral of the lesson. "NEVER DO THIS TO A CUSTOMERS
SHUTTER! Send it to us."



Please report all.

I have Betax 5 with stuck blades, but it still looks OK.

I await news!

[E. von Hoegh]

I found this site (http://shutter-cla.blogspot.com/) which has lots of info and opinions on shutter maintenance.

Since I don't have much money in this old shutter, so I may take the "best" advice I can glean and just experiment...that way E. von can say "Told ya so!" when I report back about my failures and regrets.

I restore antique watches, as kind of a sideline. I bet 60 to 70 percent (maybe more) of my work is undoing what others have done.

[Tin Can]

See my post below, I spent years rebuilding 'basket case' engines. 8 speed trannies were always fun.


I restore antique watches, as kind of a sideline. I bet 60 to 70 percent (maybe more) of my work is undoing what others have done.

[lecarp]

Yeah, this explains why there are so many shutters smelling of lighter fliud and not working.

Send it to someone like Flutot's unless you have the tools, lubricants, and experience to: disassemble, clean all parts, reassemble lubricating as you go. You'll need: A set of watchmaker's screwdrivers, some tweezers, an ultrasonic cleaner, at least two lubricants- light grease and watch or light clock oil; skill, experience, and a place to work.

I will second this. The amount of equipment being destroyed by hacks is ridiculous . If you don't KNOW what your doing do not do it, pay someone who does.
Often this botched repair job equipment is sold without full disclosure about what has been done.

[adelorenzo]

I read a bunch of pros and cons on the lighter fluid thing but all I can say is it worked for me. I had an Ilex shutter where the flash sync wasn't firing when the shutter fired. I didn't even open it, just flushed it by squeezing the plastic bottle and then letting it soak for a while. Some grit came out from inside of the shutter and after I thoroughly dried it everything has been working perfectly since.

YMMV of course.

[E. von Hoegh]

See my post below, I spent years rebuilding 'basket case' engines. 8 speed trannies were always fun.

If they were digital, I'd post the picture story of a ca. 1925 Fay & Bowen LN-43 boat engine which came to me in boxes, filling the back of a pickup truck. The LN-43 was a 60 hp four, 4 3/4" x 5 1/2", 1200 rpm and 950 pounds. The (early) Paragon drive was in the same case as the rset of the engine. The magneto was missing, and the only one I could find turned the wrong way. I noticed that the impulse coupling was designed to be assembled to work either way, so I retimed the internals of the Bosch magneto to turn the correct direction. The starter was missing, but I found the correct Northern Electric with the wrong mounting nose. I made parts on a lathe, welded them together, put them back in the lathe, drilled six holes in the mill and had a correct mounting nose. Then all the valves were unserviceable.... babbit bearings... where do you get a head gasket for one of these?


Yeah, I've resurrected a couple basket cases. ;)

[E. von Hoegh]

I will second this. The amount of equipment being destroyed by hacks is ridiculous . If you don't KNOW what your doing do not do it, pay someone who does.
Often this botched repair job equipment is sold without full disclosure about what has been done.

Yes. You can't tell people though, they ask and then ignore good advise - or argue with it - the mark of a true hack. This will be the last time I respond to this type of question.
Maybe I'll start repairing shutters, too.

[Michael Graves]

I once "CLA'ed" my own Ilex. It worked for one, maybe two years, without fail, and then started to get really sticky at 1/10 and below. So this time, feeling a bit more flush, I sent it Carol's way. About three days later -- just about the time it takes for a stork to fly a shutter betwixt hither and thither -- I get an email from Carol. "Did you try to fix this yourself? It's a mess!" "Of course not!" I said aloud. "not recently" I said to myself. "Can you fix it?"

She could and she did and that shutter is still my most accurate and reliable. But not because of me.

[Tin Can]

Head gaskets you say? I know head gaskets!

I worked for Fel-Pro in the Dyno lab for 30 years, testing head gaskets. We used to have a custom department that would hand make a head gasket if we did not stock it. We had a deep catalog that covered nearly any American engine ever made.

There are ways, many ways, to save old engines!



If they were digital, I'd post the picture story of a ca. 1925 Fay & Bowen LN-43 boat engine which came to me in boxes, filling the back of a pickup truck. The LN-43 was a 60 hp four, 4 3/4" x 5 1/2", 1200 rpm and 950 pounds. The (early) Paragon drive was in the same case as the rset of the engine. The magneto was missing, and the only one I could find turned the wrong way. I noticed that the impulse coupling was designed to be assembled to work either way, so I retimed the internals of the Bosch magneto to turn the correct direction. The starter was missing, but I found the correct Northern Electric with the wrong mounting nose. I made parts on a lathe, welded them together, put them back in the lathe, drilled six holes in the mill and had a correct mounting nose. Then all the valves were unserviceable.... babbit bearings... where do you get a head gasket for one of these?


Yeah, I've resurrected a couple basket cases. ;)

[E. von Hoegh]

Head gaskets you say? I know head gaskets!

I worked for Fel-Pro in the Dyno lab for 30 years, testing head gaskets. We used to have a custom department that would hand make a head gasket if we did not stock it. We had a deep catalog that covered nearly any American engine ever made.

There are ways, many ways, to save old engines!

I found a head gasket, an original, copper/asbestos unit. It helps to know eccentric old men with barns full of things like this. I found valves for some 50s truck engine which needed the heads turned down a bit. I poured the babbit myself. A guy in Niagra N.Y. made rings to fit the original pistons - which were virtually unworn.

[Tin Can]

After all that, I hope you kept it.

That's how I became a mechanic. My older brother, left a basket case Twin cyl Matchless bike behind. He had lost a piston. I was 16 trying to make a piston, never happened, but I tried and finally traded that now priceless bike for a smashed Honda, I could fix.

Shutters may be my Waterloo.



I found a head gasket, an original, copper/asbestos unit. It helps to know eccentric old men with barns full of things like this. I found valves for some 50s truck engine which needed the heads turned down a bit. I poured the babbit myself. A guy in Niagra N.Y. made rings to fit the original pistons - which were virtually unworn.

[Randy]

Yes. You can't tell people though, they ask and then ignore good advise - or argue with it - the mark of a true hack. This will be the last time I respond to this type of question.
Maybe I'll start repairing shutters, too.
I had never rebuilt an automatic transmission before. The one on my 1970 Ford pick-up failed back in the early 90's. I couldn't afford to have it done so I did it myself. Sold the truck about 10 years later. About 2 years ago I ran into the fella who has owned it since. I asked if he ever had transmission trouble. He said it has worked flawlessly since he had it.

At any rate..Mr. Hoegh, you can take your good advice and shove it.

[E. von Hoegh]

I had never rebuilt an automatic transmission before. The one on my 1970 Ford pick-up failed back in the early 90's. I couldn't afford to have it done so I did it myself. Sold the truck about 10 years later. About 2 years ago I ran into the fella who has owned it since. I asked if he ever had transmission trouble. He said it has worked flawlessly since he had it.

At any rate..Mr. Hoegh, you can take your good advice and shove it.

So, you start a thread asking for advice. You don't like the advice, discount it, and tell us how you're going to ignore it. Then, you're rude. Why start a thread in the first place?

Good luck.

[E. von Hoegh]

After all that, I hope you kept it.

That's how I became a mechanic. My older brother, left a basket case Twin cyl Matchless bike behind. He had lost a piston. I was 16 trying to make a piston, never happened, but I tried and finally traded that now priceless bike for a smashed Honda, I could fix.

Shutters may be my Waterloo.

No, I put it back in the 30 foot Fay & Bowen dual cockpit runabout it belonged to.

Jeez... a Matchless! I like the older Brit bikes.

[Randy]

So, you start a thread asking for advice. You don't like the advice, discount it, and tell us how you're going to ignore it. Then, you're rude. Why start a thread in the first place?

Good luck.
I actually thought the advice was sound - if one doesn't know how to do something, it is often best to leave it to the experts. What I don't like is being called a "hack" by some internet bully just because I didn't immediately take his advice as the best and only advice.
Next!

[E. von Hoegh]

I actually thought the advice was sound - if one doesn't know how to do something, it is often best to leave it to the experts. What I don't like is being called a "hack" by some internet bully just because I didn't immediately take his advice as the best and only advice.
Next!

You're not the first who has disregarded my advice, but you're the last who will do it regarding this subject on this or any other forum. I said this would be the last question like this I will answer, and it is. I've lost track of how many times I've gone through this very same scenario (and there's always someone who chimes in and says "well, I used ronsonol and it worked perfectly", even though they don't own a shutter tester).
And, while I may be blunt and stubborn, I am no bully. It isn't me calling names and telling someone to "shove it" either.
When I used the term "hack" in an above post, I was making a general point, you're the one who decided it was pertinent to you.
The last word is yours.
Good luck.

[Peter Yeti]

Gentlemen,

Why not calm down a bit and be peaceful? Advice can be given but it's not a good idea to force it down the throat. In the end, everyone has to make his own experience. On the other hand, if I ask for advice and don't like the result, I might just say thanks and do whatever I think.

This said, I only can second that it's not the best idea to dump a shutter in cleaning fluid. I restore watches as well and can confirm the observations stated above. I see a lot of botched up movements and if the shift-make "maintenance" doesn't stop them running soon enough, the damages caused by this are often unrepairable. Shutters may be more forgiving because they don't run permanently. But else they are closely related to watch movements. I'd say, try your luck, it is your shutter.

[Randy]

The last word is yours.My last word is "yawn".
As for the others - I have gleaned some instructions via PM. Will let y'all know when my Betax is available for parts or repair :-)

[Fotoguy20d]

Take a look at these - they might help a bit. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jones-ben/sets/72157618391500217/detail/) They're not mine but I found them while contemplating my own Betax 4 repair - I'm going to tackle it eventually but havent had the time yet. I'll agree with whoever said not to soak the shutter - that usually just spreads the mess around, and with some shutters will eat the blades.

Dan

[Jody_S]

Does anyone know how many blades are supposed to be in a Betax #5? 5 or 6? I bought one off the forum lately, attached to a Wolly Series II 12/4.5, non-working shutter of course. I opened to clean the blades and when I re-assembled, I had one extra blade and a perfectly-working shutter. Was the 1st blade in the sequence doubled-up?

[Jon Shiu]

Does anyone know how many blades are supposed to be in a Betax #5? 5 or 6? I bought one off the forum lately, attached to a Wolly Series II 12/4.5, non-working shutter of course. I opened to clean the blades and when I re-assembled, I had one extra blade and a perfectly-working shutter. Was the 1st blade in the sequence doubled-up?

I haven't done it, but believe the extra blade is put on last, over the first blade.

Jon

[Michael Graves]

Yeah, this explains why there are so many shutters smelling of lighter fliud and not working.

Send it to someone like Flutot's unless you have the tools, lubricants, and experience to: disassemble, clean all parts, reassemble lubricating as you go. You'll need: A set of watchmaker's screwdrivers, some tweezers, an ultrasonic cleaner, at least two lubricants- light grease and watch or light clock oil; skill, experience, and a place to work.

Hear, hear. At least if you decide to try and repair your own shutter, let people like me know when you did. I suffer from CDS (coordination deficiency syndrome) and would no more try to take a shutter apart than I'd try to disarm a nuclear bomb. I send shutters to Carol. As like another person pointed out, I've had her ask if I tried to fix it myself. The thing about DIY repairs is this. If I get a shutter that nobody has tried to repair and it seems okay, it probably is. If I get a shutter that somebody has tried to repair and it seems okay, it probably isn't. I don't want to pay as much for the one somebody else mucked up.

[Jody_S]

I haven't done it, but believe the extra blade is put on last, over the first blade.

Jon

That's what I thought, though one of the blades is bent a little worse than the others, so I left it out and tried the shutter without it. I'll be trying it on-camera (without the 6th blade) to see if it's ok as-is. I usually take a pic when I first open the shutter to help with the orientation and order, but the blades were out of place when I opened it so the photo wasn't much help.

[jbenedict]

If they were digital, I'd post the picture story of a ca. 1925 Fay & Bowen LN-43 boat engine which came to me in boxes, filling the back of a pickup truck. The LN-43 was a 60 hp four, 4 3/4" x 5 1/2", 1200 rpm and 950 pounds. The (early) Paragon drive was in the same case as the rset of the engine. The magneto was missing, and the only one I could find turned the wrong way. I noticed that the impulse coupling was designed to be assembled to work either way, so I retimed the internals of the Bosch magneto to turn the correct direction. The starter was missing, but I found the correct Northern Electric with the wrong mounting nose. I made parts on a lathe, welded them together, put them back in the lathe, drilled six holes in the mill and had a correct mounting nose. Then all the valves were unserviceable.... babbit bearings... where do you get a head gasket for one of these?

Ain't that fun... I have a friend who restores/repairs/gets running vintage boat engines. He's pretty creative and has a lathe, Bridgeport mill, welders (two types) and a group of friends who know more about this than he does so stuff gets finished. He likes the Scripps motors and his first complete rebuild was a Chrysler Royal Eight when he was 18. It is amazing what you can do if you decide that you are going to do it. I keep my opinions to myself but there are *lots* more fun boat motors than small and large block Chevys. The guys with propane stoves on their boats who pull a good running vintage gas motor because "it might blow up and diesel is safer" especially make me laugh.