View Full Version : England trip

Kirk Gittings
13-Jun-2004, 12:11
I am traveling to England later this year so my wife can visit her family. We will be around Leistershire in the Midlands. What are the best months and good locations to photograph. I am an architectural photographer by trade and am looking to expand my b&w fine art portfolio. I don't need good "vacation" weather. I am more interested in good "image" weather stormy etc. I may also make a side trip to Glasgow to check out the fascilities at the Glasgow School of Art where I may be teaching summer of 2005.

David E. Rose
13-Jun-2004, 14:58
Kirk, The Glasgow School of Art is well worth a trip. All of the Macintosh buildings in and around Glasgow are great. It is an amazing testament to Macintosh's vision that most of these buildings have been used for the same purpose for 100 years. The Glasgow School of Art and the Willow Tea Room are particularly good examples of this. Beyond the Macintosh stuff, Glasgow is a wonderful urban environment to photograph. Of course, once you get as far as Glasgow, you should go a bit further north to the Highlands! Loch Lomond isn't to far north of Glasgow. I think that the Scottish Highlands are about as senic as the UK gets.

As far as time of year, I have been to Scotland in the winter, early spring and late summer. I found all of these seasons to be fine- the main thing is to avoid the summer tourist season!

13-Jun-2004, 20:03
As far as visiting times go, try to avoid the 2nd week in July to the first week in September as that is when schools are on their summer holiday and as such is the peak season for local tourism.

On the architecture front, there are of course any number of old churches and cathedrals but note that you will mostly need prior permission and, especially in cathedrals, a donation, to use a tripod inside. There are likely to be other restrictions concerning times allowed so do check first. Another option is the multitude of Neolithic and Bronze Age sites. No others are as impressive as Stonehenge, which is some 150 miles south of Leicestershire, but they can make for haunting images in the right weather & light: see http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/home/ for locations.

Birmingham, just down the road, shows just how bad 1960's and 70's urban planning could get. Thankfully, the new development of the Bullring shopping area looks like being a great improvement. Still under construction, the finished areas would make good architectural subjects: especially around the new Selfridges building which is quite radical in shape and design (well, for England it is!).

Autumn is always a good time for colour landscape so you might consider Cumbria (alias: 'The Lake District'). Whenever I am feeling hemmed-in here in the city, I browse to: http://www.personal.u-net.com/~keswick/ldp.htm for a dose of fresh air; that guy is out and about most days with his digicam: check out the "Recent Pictures" link. The tail end of September and well into October seems best for Cumbrian colour, as it will be for most of the country: plus you get an increased likelihood of early morning mists on the lakes. I usually rent a cottage from: http://www.cumbrian-cottages.co.uk - much cheaper than an hotel and provides much more freedom.

For some ideas of locations in general see: http://www.uklandscape.net and browse to either the map or search by county (although a quick look shows Leicestershire with only 3 picture to its name).


P.S. luckily, your wife can tell you how to pronounce "Leicestershire" correctly - I'm sure much simple amusement is afforded the locals, listening to most non-British visitors try... ;-)

mark blackman
14-Jun-2004, 01:48
Kirk, Leicestershire places you pratically in the centre of England, and within easy distance of enough architecture to keep you busy. A trip to Glasgow, with an othernight stay, is also doable (as I'm sure you know, Glasgow is in Scotland, not England!).

As others have said - summer is not the best time for photography, unless you get up early to catch the favourable light. One thing to bear in mind, the British landscape is more a collection of reatively low, rounded hills. There are no mountains as most people understand them, no hugh rivers, massive lakes, vast swathes of virgin woodland. On the other hand, there is quite a mixture of landscapes, architecture and ancient structures all crowded together in a compact space.

If you want to seek out some interesting industrial architecure from the 19 century, you can't beat following the tow-paths alongside many of the canals that criss-cross the midlands, especially in and around Birmingham & Wolverhampton.

Colin Carron
14-Jun-2004, 04:10
Mark, Glasgow is a fine city which mushroomed in the 19th C so is full of amazing architecture from that period. Sadly the industrial sites such as the shipyards and ironworks are all gone now. I suggest you might look for buildings by Alexander 'Greek' Thompson as well as the better known CRM. His Caledonia Road Free Church is a scandalously neglected ruin now but there are several other examples of his work. North of Glasgow is the wonderful Loch Lomond/Ben Lomond and Trossachs area which provides plenty of photo opportunities. For more urban drama Edinburgh is a mixture of medieval, classical (Adam), and more modern buildings and with its hilly location, a good place for photography. There are any number of great places further north esp in the Western Isles.

As mentioned above Leicestershire is nicely central in England so really it is up to you. I would suggest you find a subject that interests you about the place, research it, then come prepared to shoot. My suggestion would be the Pennines and North York Moors which are glorious countryside and include a number of dramatic ruined Cistercian abbeys such as Rievaulx and Fountains.

good luck with your trip!

Pete Watkins
14-Jun-2004, 12:43
Mark, I suggest that you look at the English Heritage website this is a government department that looks after most of our best heritage sites. I think that temporary membership is available to tourists from overseas. The number of sites available would justify paying the annual membership fee. The National Trust are out there but they have many restrictions on photography and I would not give them my money as they allow all kinds of hunting with dogs on their land (sorry to get political but this is a massive debate in England). Local authority websites such as leicestershire.gov, warwickshire.gov and any county you fancy.gov will give you so much tourist information that you will be researching photographic possibilities until the day that you set out. The Welsh border counties are a lot closer than the North of England and many intresting castle ruins are in this area. Look up preserved railways if you are into this sort of thing. The Welshpool & Llanfair railway is only 100 miles or so from Leicester and Derbyshire offers many sites of interest to photographers, theNational Tramway Museum at Crich being one of my favourites. Neothilic stone circles are also not a million miles away if you want really ancient stuff, the Rollright Stones and Arbour Low are fairly near and if you go the right way The Rollrights are on the way to Oxford. Oxford is a real pig for parking (the wardens are all gestapo trained) but it is a beautiful city. The park and ride is there if you can put up with a trip of a couple of miles in smelly badly driven busses (yes of course it's the automatic gearboxes). I hope that this helps. Pete

14-Jun-2004, 14:47
The National Trust only ban photography *inside* the houses they own: this is partly a security issue (burglars have been known to 'case the joint' with cameras, noting alarm system placement etc) and partly to avoid annoying other visitors. That is the only restriction on photography that I know of. External photography of the buildings and grounds is allowed.


John Hennessy
14-Jun-2004, 22:15

I'm a little fuzzy on distances such as from Lester (that's as close I'd try to match actual pronunciation) to Wells. Distances don't matter much anyway --- it's time that counts. In New Mexico distance and time have a relationship; in that part of England on the narrow roads its every sheep, lorry, and minicooper in a race for the next spot wide enough to pass.

Wells Cathedral is of course well photographed but as always fresh eyes see new things. Unlike the Continent it is very tripod friendly. You will need to pay an extremely modest fee to use a tripod in the interior but I told the verger that he should charge much more because it must cost a fortune to maintain those ancient places and photographers would pay it no matter what --- it's that great. The Close is good too. It is up to you whether to re-look at Frederick H Evans before locating the stairs to the Chapter House. But prepare to be disappointed in one thing: the stairs themselves are individually replaced occasionally. Evans' CA 1890 image shows treads almost completely smoothed down to the next in places but now most are much more recently replaced.

It (and other English cathedrals) also contrast with the continental counterparts in the that they were and still are very damaged. The Reformation and the Puritans were not kind to these places. That becomes a large part of what makes them such worthy subjects.

If you spend less than two-three days you will want to go back.


David Bennett
15-Jun-2004, 23:30

I live in Nottingham (20miles North of Leicester). You have a great opportunity to photograph lots of historic sites...Leicester Cathedral though small is magnificnet in it's diminutive beauty!. Then go visit Nottingham for the Church of St Mary the Virgin High Pavement, and marvel at it's saxon roots. The area surrounding the church is fascinating too (known as "The Lace Market") with excellent examples of good victorian (19th century) and Georgian architecture. Nottingham Castle is quite frankly disappointing! unless you like modern (1850's) style buildings, BUT the view from the castle is stunning. Now then for landscape stuff you are 1 hour away from the UK's most famous Derbyshire countryside. Give the derbyshire tourist office a call and they send you - free - guides to all major sites of interest. The area is known as the "peak district" and is stunnning. If you can... go visit the UK's most interesting Church in Lowick Northamptonshire (less then 1 hour away). see the unique octagonal bell tower and then go have superb meal in a real pub - The Snooty Fox. I'll only promise one thing...you will not be disappointed!!

Have a great trip


Charlie Skelton
16-Jun-2004, 08:57
Re: No real mountains as people understand them.

We do have real mountains, they are just not very high. The Cuillins in Skye have impressed many a seasoned alpinist, and the Mountains of Snowdonia possess great ruggedness with knife edge ridges. The lake district to be fair has rather more of the ' big rounded hill' look, as does much of Scotland accessible by car ( a lot of the more impressive views are on the Northern faces where glaciation has cut huge corries, many of these have a multi hour walk in and you want to be there in the early morning or late evening, both popular times for the midges). A further complication of these areas is the if Leicestershire seems peculiarly spelt, the Gaelic ( pronounced Gallic) is a different world eg. Coire an t-Sneachda ( in the Cairngorms), or Bidean Druim nan Ramh ( Bijian drim nan raav) in Skye.

Seriously though, if your in Leicestershire, there will be endless possibilities with the quiet quintessential rural landscape ( we possess in common with China, the feeling that every part of England has felt the hand of man). Churches are good fodder too, if you go midweek when no one is about, you are unlikely to be too troubled by needing permission, at least for the exteriors. Stonehenge is amenable to photographers providing you have no commercial intentions, the main problems is that it always inundated with visitors and you are confined to a perimeter path, hence it is very difficult to get good shots without people in it, there is another option however; if you contact them before hand they let a small group in when there are no other visitors and you can get right up to the stones; they don't advertise this, it's a sort of open secret.

Another, perhaps less obvious option for architecture is the City of London ( the banking area), on a sunday morning this is completely deserted, and you might even be able to set up in the middle of the street.

One to avoid near Leicester is the Sherwood Forest of Robin Hood fame, there's not much forest at all, it's all a bit disappointing!

For travel times, 40 MPH is probably a good pessimistic average in the south of England when you are off motorways / serious main roads, having said that, everything is very densely packed here, so whereas in the southern states you could drive for an hour and see nothing beyond road and desert, here you would pass a dozen villages each with one good church, probably some lovely old houses too, and generally a decent pub.

The weather here is very changeable and can be good or bad any time of the year, if you are here for a few weeks you will get clear days, wild days and days when it does all sorts!

I hope you enjoy it here, it's a great place.


Rob Hale
17-Jun-2004, 20:42
Hi Kirk

Trip to UK, some quick thoughts.

While Engalnds not my favorite place it is littered in photo opps.

I second the canals possibility and the other suggestion of source information.

Heaps of old wharehouses, factories, shipyards etc which offer B & W opps.

Gardens of every shape and size not to mention parks with an abundace of trees and sometimes bits of Roman walls and buildings (St Albans – you could probably spend a week just walking around trying to decide on what to shoot ! try down by the river and around the Abbey).

Can be cold so take an extra jumper.

Skies have a bad habit of being GRAY even in summer – May can be a very good month for sun shine.

One of problems with the UK is a lot of people in a smallish place so there is a lot of dull stuff but in pockets in between - there is photographers gold.

Can I suggest that when you find something/place of interest that you look over your shoulder (litteraly turn round ) as 5 times out of 10 there is another view equally good or better behind you or to one side.

I am guessing here but it sounds like you don’t “know” the UK so I think I would suggest that you consider this a research trip and plan for the “MAIN” trip later – things like the best routes to take between places of interest so you avoid the worst traffic and vist the maximum number of intertesting villages, small towns (market days or not market days). You could of course spend several months in London – ( if you have any interest in painting then you would surely enjoy the Tate and Nationally Galleries the Tate has the Turner collections and I think both are free entery).

If you are renting a car the rental folks there can be VERY picky about damage to the car when you return it so, on pickup, inspect it VERY carefully ( include the wheel rims, hub caps and head cloth{roof lining} and have the agent note even small damage.

If you are going to back for second trip renting a barge and travelling that way for a week or fortnight is well worth looking into, on a barge - it’s a completely different view of a country – to the one you see from a car or a coach ( not to mention the little country pubs beside or near to the canals) .

The more I write this the more I realise it is almost impossible to make quick valid suggestions as there is so much to see let alone shoot.

Glasgow OK here are couple of suggestions :-

M1 to Leeds “do” Kirkstall Abbey

Harrowgate (don’t stop) thro to Knaresborough take a walk round, pretty place,go down by the river too.

Deversion to Ripon (market town) and Cathedral is worthy of a vist.
And or you could take in York – the Shambles and the Minster – bit iffy with holidays.

Then either up the A1 to Scotch Corner then A62 to Penrith and M6 north and Glasgow

Or back back to Harrowgate and over the Pennines (A65 via Skipton,Kirkby Longsdale) and on to the M62 - well you could go into Kendal and Windermere but this would slow at best and if it’s holiday time – DON’T, then on north to Glasgow.

But if time is an issue save this for the Main trip and haul up the M6 (Leicester – Burton on Trent – Stoke on Trent M6) to Carlisle and on to Glasgow.

Whatever you decide on - have a mighty trip.


Kirk Gittings
20-Jun-2004, 11:47
Thanks for all the input. Your comments and suggestions will help me plan a much more successful trip!

20-Jun-2004, 15:06
BTW, for film, larger branches of the Jessops high street chain of photo stores usually have some 4x5 Ilford B&W film in stock; otherwise you may need to find a pro shop or use mail order. Probably best to bring enough to tide you over for a few days at least, just in case.


Mark Sampson
21-Jun-2004, 13:29
A quote from Paul Caponigro (I think); "What you are looking for in England, you will find in Ireland." I've never been to Ireland but loved photographing in England, and would love to go back.

Kirk Gittings
3-Jun-2006, 18:44
I am finally making this trip. the first real live vacation, longer than three or four days, that I have taken since 1978. I have been accused by current and previous wives of being a workaholic. So be it, my life is photography and this trip will be no different. Thanks for the recomendations, they have been of use.

3-Jun-2006, 18:55
Same location as original post?

Kirk Gittings
3-Jun-2006, 20:10
Pretty much, though this will hopefully be the first of a series of trips. My wife has spent much time in London over the years. We both want to get out to the countryside. Crowds make me a little crazy. We are unfortubately on a tight 8 day schedule (8 days in country) that starts in London and loops north to Leicester to meet up with my wifes uncles and then I think we will head north to the North York Moors (Rievaulx and Fountains abbeys) then over to Kenwick (Casterigg stone circle) and back to Leicester again, and back to London to fly home. That seems like a doable--not too insane trip that will afford some shooting opportunities. Any suggestions along the way?

tim atherton
3-Jun-2006, 20:31
For starters take a look at any of Fay Godwins books - especally the ones with plenty of Yorkshire stuff in them - Elmet, and also Land. Read some of Ted Hughes' poetry.

You could spend the whole trip just in N Yorkshire (where I spent much of my childhood) and on the trip across the Pennines.

John Kasaian
3-Jun-2006, 21:40
For training, I think I'd lock myself in a small room with only a television, vcr, and a collection of all the episopes of "Two Fat Ladies" on vhs about a week before leaving for Britain. Beautiful cinemaphotography by Spike Something or other.

One thing that really impressed me last time I was in Great Britain---and this might sound wierd---were all the little---really little--- gardens I saw from the "tube" in London. I mean when the train would emerge onto the surface for brief moments, these delightful little gardens on the right of way would flash by amid all the railroad clutter. Tiny gardens not more than a few feet square with carefully tended geraniums, vegetables, small flowers etc... Who planted them? Who took care of them (without getting run down by a train?) In the grey weather, hard against soot and grime coated brick and stone walls for background, these were like little jewels and I doubt if they could have been appreciated by anyone unless they were passengers(who were for the most part either buried in "The Times" or pan handling.)

I have no idea how to photograph these places---they'd appear in a flash and they were gone---but I've always thought they would be an interesting subject.

Sounds like a fun trip!

Kirk Gittings
3-Jun-2006, 22:29
Tim, By chance I happen to own those books, though honestly I probably hadn't looked at them in 20 years. i did not realize they were from that area.

John, By chance my wife is a professional chef and we are very fond of the Two Fat Ladies.

tim atherton
4-Jun-2006, 07:46
Land is more broad reaching with all parts of the UK (including across the Pennines and into the Lake Districk around Keswick)

Elmet is West to North Yorkshire if I recall, including the Pennines

You also take a look at Daivd Hockneys joiner(s?) of Rievaulx Abbey (I think it was, rather than Fountains) as well as his recent watercolours of N Yorkshire

In additon there are a few wonderful photographs from that area in the recent book of Roger Fentons photographs All the Mighty World

Struan Gray
4-Jun-2006, 13:32
Are you still looking for architecture, and if so, what sort? The Midlands are indeed full of heritage buildings and palimpsest landscapes, but there are plenty of contemporary building and art too. You've probably seen the trademark buildings in the architecture rags, but things like the Royal Armories in Leeds, the Imperial War Museum in Manchester and the Sage and Millenium Bridge up in Gateshead are fascinating not only in themselves, but because of their situation amid the survivors and ruins of earlier industrial might. The Selkirk wheel is close enough to Glasgow for a quick visit if you're into po-mo engineering.

If you do want heritage, it's worth looking out for smaller, more quirky places as well as the big name attractions. Haddon Hall, near Chatsworth is one of our favourites in the area you are thinking of. If you're going landscaping, consider the White Peak and the limestone areas of the N.Yorks Moors if you want something most Americans never see.

More reading: "The illustrated history of the countryside" by Oliver Rackham. A coffee-table condensation of his (excellent, but detailed) more academic works. It explains a lot of what you'll be seeing out of the window of your car.

Struan Gray
4-Jun-2006, 13:37
John, you're talking about "allotments". It's a world and a culture all to itself, and very different from the Continental Gartenhaus or Koloni garden. There's a good photo essay and here:


David Martin
4-Jun-2006, 14:12
John, you're talking about "allotments". It's a world and a culture all to itself, and very different from the Continental Gartenhaus or Koloni garden.

I have an allotment and it is a very different culture.. Make do and mend, scratching a few fruit and veg and some flowers out of a patch of land about 20 yards square.

I must get down there early one morning and get some pictures. typically each plotholder has a small shack/greenhouse built of cast-off materials and patched over the years.

If I recall correctly it is the only leisure facility local councils are required to provide. Works wonders for getting those food miles down. Nothing like picking a few kilos of strawberries on the way in to work (a ten minute cycle)..


Pete Watkins
4-Jun-2006, 14:19
Kirk, if you're going to visit The North York Moors you really should not miss a visit to Whitby. the Sutcliff Gallerey is in the town and you can view and buy images by Frank Meadow Sutcliff. He was a L.F. photographer in Victorian / Edwardian times and I think that he was one of the English greats. Whitby is fantastic, so are nearby Staithes and Robin Hoods Bay. PETE.

Bruce Watson
4-Jun-2006, 14:49
Just a thought. Maybe not for your first trip, but maybe sometime. That would be to look up Andy Goldsworthy while you are near by.

Goldsworthy is a fabulous sculptor who does work that for some reason I think you might like. An example is his Sheepfolds project in Cumbria:


Goldsworthy sees differently than just about anyone you can name. You might find it interesting photographing some of his sculpture, walls, and stone work. The relationships he builds with the landscape are, well, amazing is about the best way I can put it.

You might want to check out Goldsworthy's Rivers and Tides DVD. You can rent it through NetFlix and I'm sure other places as well.

As I said, just a thought.

4-Jun-2006, 20:03
A taste of the North East:

You are really spoilt for choice as regards both Landscape and Architectural Photgraphy in most parts of UK but for expansive Landscapes the North East of England and especially Northumberland, IMO, is one of the best areas of the UK. The lake district is beautiful but busy all year. Northumberland will be empty out of holiday season so if you want peace and tranquility its worth travelling a bit further North than Yorkshire. York itself is worth a visit for the walled city and Minster but it is very "touristy" most of the year. Lots of Japanese.

On the way up North Durham and its Cathedral is also worth visiting.

Potteries district around Stoke on Trent (east midlands) is worth a visit for industrial architecture of the period. Big brick kilns and canals... The possibilities are endless and 8 days won't even scratch the surface.

York Minster

Whitby Abbey (North York Moors and right a bit), Harbour and also Famous for its "Fish & Chips".

Bamburgh Castle, North of Newcastle, hour and a half from york and you pass the Angel of the North. You also pass through Alnwick which is home of duke of Northumberland and Alnwick castle is open to public and just down the road is Alnmouth which is off the beaten track.

Lindisfarne (Holy Island) North of Bamburgh a few miles. Another castle and ruined Abbey. The road out to the Island is Tidal so you would need to check tide times.

Martin Reekie
5-Jun-2006, 00:59
As Mark pointed out you will be visiting the UK or Great Britain. England is the small bit on the bottom of Scotland, just to the right of Wales and over the water from Northern Ireland!!! They're the ones playing in the football world cup, the rest of us are still recovering from 1966!!! Sorry couldn't resist.

Kirk, Macintosh buildings in and around Glasgow are great. Well worth a visit is the Scottish parliament building in Edinburgh too along with all the other wonderful buildings in the capital. Good sites to look at are;

As pointed out avoid the summer months, very busy with tourist, schools on holiday, more expensive and, from recent years, not the best weather either. Late September can be a good time.

Have a good trip,

Mark Sampson
5-Jun-2006, 04:53
Kirk, one thing no one has mentioned yet is the difference in light. GB is low altitude, and very humid (I won't say damp) compared to the high desert of the American Southwest. So be prepared for the fact that everything will look different for this reason alone. The first time I went west I was surprised by the quality of light in the desert- so different from my upstate New York home. England by contrast (or lack thereof) was very familiar, light-wise, when I went there; I felt familiar with it, anyway. But have a great trip- I'm sure you'll have a fine time and make great photographs.

Kirk Gittings
5-Jun-2006, 09:08
Nice images Robert.

All, I am aware how paltry my time is there. It will be near luck if I happen to be somewhere when the light is terrific. But hopefully this will be the first of many trips.

I assume one of the differences in light is the amount of moisture in the air which tends to wash out the blue sky and lower contrast. In the SW my "go to" filter is a number 15 Yellow/orange to add some drama. That filter will probably be a bit inadequate on the moors?

Kirk Gittings
5-Jun-2006, 09:09
Are there many restrictions when photographing in the ruined abbeys?

5-Jun-2006, 10:31
I don't think there are restrictions on ruined abbeys but you may well have to pay to get in. I haven't been to Fountains but I think it is more complete than some others. Barnbaum has a nice image of Fountains Lay Brothers Refectory at his site.

Lindisfarne is quite special and being well out of the way it doesn't get very busy out of main holiday season.

Also if you go to Northumberland then you have Hadrians Wall which runs right across the Northumberland moors to Carlisle North of the Lake district. Lots of Roman ruins and large sections of wall which are very photogenic and in the least populated area of England. Also friendliest people in the UK but I'm biased...

The moors of Britain all have very different character. North York moors have big skies and expansive views. Dartmoor, my local moor, is very different with lots of Tors (granite outcrops) and wooded river valleys but I think its far too far from Yorkshire and Northumberland given the time you have.

Personally I like most Lake District images in colour rather than B+W because its usually so wet everything is very green unlike the North York moors which are on the east side of the country and are much drier and darker in colours.

You'll just have to see what the sky colours are. Really depends on the weather on any given day. The Horizon line nearly always has a lot of haze and no filter will darken it.

Contrary to popular belief, The UK actually has quite a low annual rainfall. Infact much lower than many areas of the US. We don't get tropical storms! We have droughts and currently we have a hose pipe ban in the South East!

Having said that, the Lake District is about the wettest area of the UK hence all those lakes, and you'd be lucky to get through a week there without at least a shower or two. Most of it falls in spring and autumn.

Barry Trabitz
5-Jun-2006, 10:49

I would suggest a visit to Avebury. A stone ring, thatched cottages, with sheep and cows grazing. Much more interesting than Stonehenge, since they placed all the barriers to the sones at Stonehenge.

At Avebury one can wander freely and get as close to the stones as one wishes. (At least that was the case the last time we visited.) Avebury is about 25 miles north of Stonehenge.

Barry Trabitz.

5-Jun-2006, 11:02
Avebury is very good but its in the wrong part of the country given that you plan to head North from Leicester and only have a week.

Kirk Gittings
5-Jun-2006, 11:13
"it doesn't get very busy out of main holiday season."

What is the main holiday season?

5-Jun-2006, 11:23
July thru August give or take a week or two at either end. Main holiday season is when school summer holidays take place but these are staggered over that period depending on region of the UK. Just take it as read that July and August are busiest period of the year but where you are going is an area where most foreign visitors never go. Don't know why not because they miss some of the best bits of England.

I think most stay on mainline train routes which makes the city of York very possible but they don't venture out into the country from York unless they hire a car.

John Kasaian
5-Jun-2006, 17:47
I doubt if those little gardens are allotments unless you've got some awfully small ones. These little gardens were maybe a meter square at most and not fenced from the passing trains that I could tell---maybe a very low fence but that would be terribly close to the tracks. I got the impression they might have been tended by subway workers for the enjoyment of the passengers flashing past. The "allotment' culture does seem to be a very interesting subject though. Is there a similar practice in Germany? I recall seeing garden plots on the outskirts of some of the towns there.

5-Jun-2006, 18:26
The rest of us are still recovering from 1966!!! Sorry couldn't resist.

I thought you were still recovering from Culloden!!! Sorry couldn't resist...