Strange Petzval (?)

[Emil Schildt]

A Voigtländer petzval lens on the loose...

What I find strange is that it is inscribed "VOIGTLÄNDER PETZVAL OBJEKTIV 1:3,7 / 147 " on the front rim...

I don't think I have seen the Petzval name written in the lens like this before..

Uncommon or am I (as usual) just uneducated?

[Steven Tribe]

No idea!
No "& Sohn"?
Late cinema or projection lens - no iris or Waterhouse stops?

[Emil Schildt]

No waterhouse stops - no writing at all on the barrel... but looking (too?) good...

[Tim Deming]

Looks to either be a modern reproduction (IOW a fake), or could be a remounting of old cells in an all new housing (similar to the B&J remounts in the US).

strange indeed

Tim

[Mark Sawyer]

Odd indeed. A quick search showed the "..& Sohn" engraving as far back as Voigtlander's 1840 all-metal camera.

[goamules]

I don't think Voigtlander would ever list the word "Petzval" on their lenses, since they basically stole his design and had a falling out.

[dsphotog]

Prototype!!??...$$!!

[Steven Tribe]

A "genuine forgery" would be just as valuable!

[Geoffrey_5995]

Are there any pictures of this lens you can share?

[Amedeus]

Looks like a somewhat modern reproduction ... Petzval in the style of Voigtlander ... ;-)

[Ian Greenhalgh]

Is this the one that was on ebay? The listing has disappeared it seems. I had it in my watch list but now it says the listing doesn't exist?

It looked like a fake to me, like someone had been busy with the engraving machine.

[Amedeus]

And located in Braunschweig of all places ...

[Emil Schildt]

yes - the one on the bay - and yes - it has gone now...

ah well...

[Steven Tribe]

Found it!
I notice it is being sold from Braunschweig!

Can't be a prototype, but perhaps an internal apprentice project 1950's or later?

[Amedeus]

Can't be a prototype, but perhaps an internal apprentice project 1950's or later?

Crossed my mind also ... demo-project, educational use for museum, etc

[Tim Deming]

Are there any pictures of this lens you can share?

Check the German auction site

[Ian Greenhalgh]

Here's the pictures, it's certainly an anachronism, the barrel looks 19th century but that name ring surely isn't 19th century. The whole thing is suspiciously new looking, like it was made recently.

I'm 99% sure it's a fake, but who made it I have no idea, it's clearly well made and I don't think it's been made from an original brass lens from the 19th century, looks like it was made in a machine shop recently.

94718947199472094721

[Ian Greenhalgh]

No serial number, wrong font, doesn't say Voigtlander & Sohn. It has to be a fake.

94722

[Mark Sawyer]

The slanted rack teeth visible in the third image are unusual. Does anyone know of any manufacturer who made such a focusing drive?

I don't know. Making a fake would hardly be a cost-effective scam, and I would think anyone going to the trouble would at least bother to find out what a real Voigtlander Petzval looks like. :confused:

[Tim Deming]

Could've made for one of the replica 1840 metal cameras. These have been made as souvenirs by Voigtlander in the 20th century, and also have been faked. The focal length is spot on for this camera

Cheers

Tim

[Geoffrey_5995]

It also looks coated.

[Ian Greenhalgh]

Yes, it looks coated, purple colour.

Fakes are far more common than people realise, my antique dealer friends in Eastern Europe see a lot of fakes all the time; there are a lot of faked Contaxes (re-engraved Kievs) and a lot of faked Zeiss Sonnars (Russian lenses with new name rings) they even fake early Russian lenses, a common fake is to take a 1950s or 1960s J-3 and replace the name ring to make it appear to be an early and rare ZK version.

I really doubt this lens was made by Voigtlander, a machine shop in Russia or Eastern Europe, perhaps the Far East, that is where I suspect it originates. Probably they removed the glass from a Petzval type projector lens (those are extremely common in Russia) and put it in this fancy brass barrel.

[Mark Sawyer]

I couldn't say for sure if it's coated or just photographed under lights of different color temperatures, but yeah, it sure looks like it might be,

Another idle speculation: Burke & James frequently "remanufactured" lenses, coating them in the process. They made beauty rings for their in-house lenses, so had the capability, and had no interest in maintaining historical integrity.

[Geoffrey_5995]

Hi Also have several fakes. Two that come to mind are a radial drive CC Harrison type lens that is engraved Dallmeyer 2A and a Bausch & Lomb Portrait Plastigmat that was engraved Zeiss Portrait lens.

[Ian Greenhalgh]

I think if B&J had made this then we'd have seen a few of them before, and also, why would a lens made/re-made in Chicago end up in Braunschweig?

Maybe someone who worked at Voigtlander developed a little sideline in making items like this after the factory in Braunschweig shut down?

[goamules]

I have a fake Darlot petzval engraved "Dr. Darlot" Can someone post the link so I can see it? I haven't found it, and won't buy it.

[Steven Tribe]

ebay 151038825833

[Emil Schildt]

I have a fake Darlot petzval engraved "Dr. Darlot" Can someone post the link so I can see it? I haven't found it, and won't buy it.

I might...

Would be funny to try out...

[goamules]

Thanks for the link. That is a strange one, I have not done any comparisons to the engraving fonts and such. But the angled rack of the focus mechanism is not like Voigtlander's lenses that I've had and seen, which are straight.

[Vincent Pidone]

Lunch box special?

[Mark Sawyer]

I think if B&J had made this then we'd have seen a few of them before, and also, why would a lens made/re-made in Chicago end up in Braunschweig?

B& J re-worked used and old-stock lenses, so a lot were one-off's. I have a 16" f/4.5 Cooke Portrait lens they re-worked, and I'm pretty sure it's the only one of those around. There was also the recently sold Pinkham & Smith they coated and painted black.

I don't know if that's what this is, but it's one more possibility, especially if it's coated. The mystery is probably more interesting than the reality. If we figure it out, it will just be "oh, is that all?"

[Tim Deming]

B& J re-worked used and old-stock lenses, so a lot were one-off's. I have a 16" f/4.5 Cooke Portrait lens they re-worked, and I'm pretty sure it's the only one of those around. There was also the recently sold Pinkham & Smith they coated and painted black.


Very doubtful it's B&J. I have a Voigtlander portrait-anastigmat they remounted. The original would have been in a brass barrel, the remount is in a more modern (1940s?) black aluminium barrel. They also didn't put the umlaut in the Voigtlander name in the engraving as in this example. If B&J remounted this one, I doubt they'd go to all the trouble to remake the late 1800's style barrel, and I dont think they would use the German spelling of "objectiv" either. If it was a remount job, it was likely done in Germany.

cheers

Tim

[Emil Schildt]

somebody wanted it badly....

$723.84

...

[Steven Tribe]

The slanted rack teeth visible in the third image are unusual. Does anyone know of any manufacturer who made such a focusing drive?

I don't know. Making a fake would hardly be a cost-effective scam, and I would think anyone going to the trouble would at least bother to find out what a real Voigtlander Petzval looks like. :confused:

An old thread - but I can add that the later Petzvals made by Emil Busch in the ROIA period (- and + year 1900) had exactly this angle cut gear track. It was also used on the bed of some classier German travel cameras. The double edged turning wheel is a copy of earlier french Petzvals, though! My guess is some Busch apprentices having fun using stock parts and access to a lathe around 1910

[Jody_S]

Here's the pictures, it's certainly an anachronism, the barrel looks 19th century but that name ring surely isn't 19th century. The whole thing is suspiciously new looking, like it was made recently.

I'm 99% sure it's a fake, but who made it I have no idea, it's clearly well made and I don't think it's been made from an original brass lens from the 19th century, looks like it was made in a machine shop recently.

94718947199472094721


In the 3rd photo it is pretty clear the brass barrel was turned on a lathe and not very well finished.

[Steven Tribe]

In the 3rd photo it is pretty clear the brass barrel was turned on a lathe and not very well finished.

The presence of fine lathe tuning lines is not really a quality issue! In my collection of Petzvals, I would guess that 50% of them ( 1845 to 1910 ) have clear fine turning marks. There is a mixture of very fine "rings" under (Apparently) undisturbed lacquer finishing and differential weathering of lacquering showing up differences in the underlying brass surface.

I include a photo of both types in Hermagis lenses. Just ten years beteen these two and it is the cleaner barrel that is the elder one!

Whether this "rough" finish was company policy or up to the individual brass turner, I have no idea! Perhaps it was thought the brass was given a more suitable surface for holding the lacquer ( preventing "Schneideritis").