Rapid Fixer - - TF-4 or Ilford Rapid Fix?

[Cletus]

Maybe I need to go back and re-read my Darkroom Cookbook, but -

What is the advantage of TF-4 over Ilford Rapid Fixer? Any?

Aren't they both essentially the exact same thing, or am I mistaken on this? Is it simply economy, TF-4 is cheaper? I'd sure be interested in some opinions here as I was getting ready make a large chemistry purchase and maybe I need to consider something less expensive than Ilford Rapid Fixer.

[Ken Lee]

Is TF-4 rapid ?

Is Ilford Rapid Fixer alkaline ?

Advantages of alkaline fixers here (www.kennethleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#alkaline).

[Cletus]

Those are the questions I think I need to be asking, I'm not sure. And I probably should know that!

I started to tack this question on to an earlier post today about toxicity of DR chemistry, then thought better of it....I really do need to just dig out my copies of Anchell's books and do some reading I guess...

[Gem Singer]

Especially, "The Film Developing Cookbook".

[Cletus]

Thanks Gem - I ended up purchasing both of these books (after you loaned me yours, I decided I needed to have them!) and I just need to dig out the FDCB and do a little brushing up.

[Doremus Scudder]

TF-4 is an alkaline rapid (i.e., ammonium thiosulfate) fixer.
Ilford Rapid Fix and Hypam are slightly acidic rapid fixers.

Both should have similar capacities.

One of the advantage of an alkaline fix is that is washes out faster. This is primarily an advantage when using fiber-base papers. Most recommend that you do not use a stop bath in conjunction with an alkaline fixer. I prefer to use a stop bath for both film and paper, so have standardized on one of the Ilford products.

One danger with alkaline fixers is that carried-over developer can be reactivated and fog or streak film. This is usually no problem, but if there are any light leaks in your darkroom and you develop film in open trays, then perhaps keeping things acid is a better idea (don't ask me how I know this...).

For printing I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid fix 1+9. At this dilution it is close enough to neutral pH as to allow me to transfer prints directly to selenium toner without an intermediate wash or rinse.

As far as economy goes, it depends on your work-flow and the dilutions you use. The 5-liter Hypam from Freestyle is $28 and makes 50 liters at the 1+9 dilution or 25 liters at 1+4. TF-4's dilution recommendation is 1+3; the one-gallon jug costs $30 from Freestyle and makes 4 gallons, or approx. 15 liters of working solution. Figure it out for your situation.

I wash both film and paper longer than needed anyway, so don't worry much about the purportedly shorter wash times achievable with alkaline fixes.

Best,

Doremus

[rich815]

I've used nothing but TF-4 fixer for my films for at least 8-10 years now ever since taking advice about alkaline fixers from Barry Thornton's writing and it works great.

[ROL]

I wash both film and paper longer than needed anyway, so don't worry much about the purportedly shorter wash times achievable with alkaline fixes.

As do I. However, the emulsion in some FB papers, famously and notably some Kentmere, will disintegrate if washed using "normal" wash times. This poses a very specific problem with these papers which can usually be addressed by limiting time for after–developing processes (like toning), using hypo-clearing agents, and watching wash times carefully, as suggested by Ilford–Harman. I've yet to experience emulsion issues with any other papers, having inadvertently washed Oriental for as much as 4 hours :eek:.

[Drew Wiley]

I haven't had any issue with current Kentmere papers and my standard hour-long wash time (plus quite a bit longer than that typically, awaiting the end of a work
day, toning, etc). The quality of the coating seemed to improve significantly once Harman took over.

[Cletus]

These are some really good, down-to-earth information and I appreciate the comments - exactly what I was interested in. Doremus, I think you finally clarified this for me, as I never really understood the reasoning with respect to alkaline vs. acidic fixers. Based on what I just read here, I can see no reason to discontinue using the Ilford Rapid Fix - I've never used anything else - and also it's reassuring to hear your good results using it at 1+9 dilution. I've never been able to bring myself to dilute 1+4 and have always wondered whether that practice would "show up" in my prints 10 or more years from now!

ROL - just wanted to say +1 on the Oriental paper too. IMO, the Seagull VC (FB) paper has a nicer surface finish, heavier weight, brighter white base and better Dmax (subjectively speaking) than Ilford MGIV and it costs a little less to boot! Really great paper I think. I'm getting ready to buy some of the graded Oriental on my next order I think. I'm not trying to start a firestorm of paper vs. paper controversy here, just wanted to acknowledge the nice quality of O.S. on this occasion....

[Drew Wiley]

Graded Oriental is out of production. You might find odds n ends on a shelf somewhere. The recent version wasn't equal to the older type anyway. I don't know about any controversy. Cost and eco limitations of ingredients had a lot to do with it, not customer preferences.

[Rick A]

I used to be a die-hard TF-4 user, but the amonia smell was too much to endure in open trays. I've since switched to Legacy-Pro Neutral(formerly Silvergrain Clearfix Neutral). It is very low (almost not detectable) odor, and is formulated to resist acid stop carry over, and is completely compatable with pyro and staining developers. It has fast fix times even at 1+7 and fast wash times.

[Doremus Scudder]

These are some really good, down-to-earth information and I appreciate the comments - exactly what I was interested in. Doremus, I think you finally clarified this for me, as I never really understood the reasoning with respect to alkaline vs. acidic fixers. Based on what I just read here, I can see no reason to discontinue using the Ilford Rapid Fix - I've never used anything else - and also it's reassuring to hear your good results using it at 1+9 dilution. I've never been able to bring myself to dilute 1+4 and have always wondered whether that practice would "show up" in my prints 10 or more years from now! .

The Ilford fixing and washing sequence has been called into question on this forum and APUG a number of times. From what I understand of the subject, some papers just don't fix to completion in the short one-minute fix in film strength fixer. Note also that with two-bath fixing, that would be 30 seconds in each bath plus drain times, which for me is just too short.

The object of the Ilford method is to keep fixing times short enough that fixer does not soak deep into the paper base, but still does its job in the emulsion; it's kind of a tightrope walk and seems to me like trying to optimize two variables. There is a "threshold" of sorts at about 1.5 minutes where the paper base becomes saturated so fixing times must be significantly shorter than this to get any advantage. I fix fiber-base prints 1.5-2 minutes in each bath (Ilford Hypam), selenium tone, wash-aid for 10+ minutes (likely longer than necessary) and then wash for a minimum of one hour, usually longer, and the total wet-time is often significantly more since some prints lie in the holding bath for a while and some get bleached, refixed, etc. during the whole process. I regularly do tests for residual hypo and silver and have never had anything close to a positive reading with this method (not exceeding fixer capacity is really important here, though! Two-bath fixing; 36 8x10 prints per liter of bath one, then replace bath one with bath two and mix a new second bath).

I've used a lot of Kentmere paper, graded and VC fiber, both pre and post Harman and have never had any problems with the emulsion flaking off. Some frilling around the edges on Kentmere and the old Seagull every now and than, but that's no problem for me since I print with
borders that get trimmed off anyway.

I may switch to an alkaline fix sometime in the future when I have the time to test out the process, but for now I'll stick to tried and true. Ilford Rapid Fix is a good product, just make sure you use a wash-aid and wash long enough. Test your process to be sure.

Best,

Doremus

[Ginette]

...
Ilford Rapid Fix and Hypam are slightly acidic rapid fixers.

For printing I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid fix 1+9. At this dilution it is close enough to neutral pH as to allow me to transfer prints directly to selenium toner without an intermediate wash or rinse.

As far as economy goes, it depends on your work-flow and the dilutions you use. The 5-liter Hypam from Freestyle is $28 and makes 50 liters at the 1+9 dilution or 25 liters at 1+4. TF-4's dilution recommendation is 1+3; the one-gallon jug costs $30 from Freestyle and makes 4 gallons, or approx. 15 liters of working solution. Figure it out for your situation.

I wash both film and paper longer than needed anyway, so don't worry much about the purportedly shorter wash times achievable with alkaline fixes.

Best,

Doremus

I search the difference between Ilford Hypam and Rapid Fix and saw nothing in the Ilford litterature or on this forum.
I use Rapid Fix in the past but see a price difference and don't know why, same ammonium thiosulphate, same dilution, same capacities ? anyone know?
Here some price at Freestyle Ilford Rapid Fixer 5l. $36.99 vs Ilford Hypam Fixer 5l. $27.99 Similar prices in Canada.