Your favorite, mostly harmless, stop & fix?

[Will Frostmill]

Hi all,

The last time I did darkroom work was in college, years ago, and I never gave any thought to chemical safety or even what kinds we were using.* I'm looking for a simple, safe, and foolproof set of chemistry to stop and fix x-ray film. I'm limiting myself to liquid concentrates - I'm not good with powders. (Spill, inhale, and clump!)

Skimming through my old texts** and poking around online, it seems like I could use a water stop, or kitchen vinegar, but I understand there are pros and cons. How do they compare to things like Ilfostop? Also, how do you like Ilford Rapid Fixer?

I'll be doing tray development of 5x7 or 8x10, and contact prints on whatever is cheap.

Will

*I still have my notes, and I know we were using D76, and at what dilutions & times, but those films don't exist anymore, so...
**gave away my Strobel & my Ilford Darkroom books, darn it.

[BarryS]

For stop bath, I mix a teaspoon of citric acid in water (1-2 liters). Simple and odorless, I wonder why I ever used acetic acid stop bath. You could make a concentrate with the citric acid, but it's very simple to use. My favorite fixer is Photo Formulary TF-4--it has a smell, but way less noxious than rapid fix, a very large capacity and long shelf life.

[Scott Davis]

Water for stop, and another vote for TF4.

[Ken Lee]

You might find this brief article (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php#stopbath) helpful.

An alkaline fixer is better for many reasons (TF-3 and TF-4). They are both liquid concentrates and TF-4 smells less than TF-3 but you can mix your own TF-3 from scratch if you like.

You only need acid stop if you're trying to prolong the life of an acidic fixer and/or want development to stop instantaneously. If fast is enough, water or a modest amount of citric acid is should stop development quickly enough.

[BarryS]

Yes, plain water is good for film stop-I only use the citric acid for paper stop.

[sully75]

xtol/water/TF-4 is fairly benign chemical wise. I develop in the kitchen, don't feel too guilty about having that stuff around my roommates.

TF-4 smells like pee sometimes but it goes away pretty quickly.

I think my results are better since I stopped using Kodak stop bath. I wonder if maybe it was because the development was being stopped too quickly and maybe somewhat inconsistently. I feel like I get less streaking since I switched to water. All in all though I'm a hack. I just hope to get lucky with my negatives. Those three have given me good results.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Plain water with citric acid for stop bath. Ilford rapid fix. Bob's your uncle.

[SpeedGraphicMan]

Powder chems are great, but you should immerse the packet while emptying it to eliminate the chance of the powder going airborne.

(I learned this from experience, "Cough Cough Cough").



I think my results are better since I stopped using Kodak stop bath. I wonder if maybe it was because the development was being stopped too quickly and maybe somewhat inconsistently. I feel like I get less streaking since I switched to water.

If your Kodak stop bath is giving you problems, you are not mixing it properly (I.E. too strong a mix).

[Frank_E]

interesting….

with regard to using citric acid as a stop bath
how do you know when it is expired
being a relative dark room newbie
I found the colour change with Kodak indicator stop bath to be helpful

then again considering how cheap this is it might just be simplest to throw it out after every session anyways...

[Ken Lee]

considering how cheap this is it might just be simplest to throw it out after every session anyways...

Precisely :cool:

[Dave Gesell]

That's what I do. I mix the stop slightly weaker than the directions, and then pitch it after a session which for me is 2 runs of 4 sheets per run. I do reuse fixer (Ilford Rapid), and keep track of how many sheets/rolls it's been used for on the side of the jug.

[Will Frostmill]

Hi all,
Thank you for all your replies! Citric acid stop sounds fantastic, and should be cheap enough to pitch after use. Thanks Barry, and thanks for the article Ken, that's quite useful and to the point.
TF4 seems like a straightforward solution for fixer as well. If I understand what I'm reading, that means I don't have to spend as much time washing the film at the end, which might be helpful with keeping the soft emulsion on the sheet.

The more I can use the same chemistry and techniques with paper and film, the happier I'll be. This is great!

I'll keep in mind the "submerge the packet" trick, if I go with powders.

I'm thinking HC-110 for developer, since it's a liquid concentrate, and I've read the MSDS, but I'll look up xtol and see what that's like as well. I'll be working with green sensitive x-ray film, and what I've been able to learn from the very long threads on them, many people are having good luck with HC-110.

[Ken Lee]

If I understand what I'm reading, that means I don't have to spend as much time washing the film at the end.

Yes: there's no need for hypo clearing agent (or longer washing time) if there's no hypo in the first place.

[sanking]

Yes: there's no need for hypo clearing agent (or longer washing time) if there's no hypo in the first place.

But you still have to fix the film!! So there has to be hypo.

Sandy

[Ken Lee]

I thought hypo refers to Sodium Thiosulfate in particular.

[Dave Gesell]

I thought hypo refers to Sodium Thiosulfate in particular.

That's my understanding as well. From the Ilford datasheet:

"The fixing agent in ILFORD RAPID FIXER is ammonium thiosulphate, it contains no sodium thiosulphate (hypo)."

[sanking]

I thought hypo refers to Sodium Thiosulfate in particular.

That seems to be the common use. I assumed it referred to either sodium thiosulfate or ammonium thiosulfate but guess that is wrong.


Sandy

[Andrew O'Neill]

with regard to using citric acid as a stop bath
how do you know when it is expired
being a relative dark room newbie
I found the colour change with Kodak indicator stop bath to be helpful

For developing film, including x-ray, I use it one-shot. I've also used it when developing prints. When the print doesn't have that squeaky clean feel between your fingers when you pull if from the stop, then it's time to make a fresh batch. Citric acid is pretty cheap. I buy it from a local beer making supplies shop.

[Drew Wiley]

I use TF4 for everything. .. so much simpler

[ROL]

Water, TF4 for both film and paper. Put your energies into composing, exposing, and executing printing technique, not (relatively mechanical) processing.

[jnantz]

sprint rapid fix

don't forget xray film has emulsion on BOTH sides
so it will load your fix up with silver that much faster.

best to do clip tests to see how fast .. faster is.

[Tin Can]

Not sure what is best, but I am going to RO9 for any film, Ilford PQ for any paper.

I have been throne studying Steve Anchell's 'The Darkroom Cookbook' which has lots of useable info.

I bought 5 lbs Citric Acid from Amazon for stop. Next I will get some indicator, for it.

Going with Anchell's TF3 fixer recipe, bought plenty of raw chems from the 2 cheapest with shipping, photo chem suppliers.

When I finally get fully geared up I want to mix my own developers.

I have found this website the best and most concise solution(pun) for many of my problems. He is also a LFF mod, thank you Ken Lee!

http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/index.php

[N Dhananjay]

Stop: For film, I use plain water, though citric acid or acetic should work too - the only thing to keep in mind is that apparently carbonate in the developer sometimes results in pinholes with acid stop. For paper, I use an acetic acid stop bath because that is what I have on hand. Citric works perfectly well too. I do not use plain water here because I want to stop development quickly with paper. You can tell when an acid stop is giving up because it will not remove the slightly soapy feel of the alkaline developer but I usually just find it easier to pitch the stop at the end of a printing session.

Fixer: For film, I use rapid fixer (ammonium thiosulphate) and keep track of the number of sheets going through - TF4 and just about anyrapid fixer seems to work well. For paper, I use a 2 bath fixing with plain sodium thiosulphate in both baths, the first bath has some bisulfite to buffer it. I also like the Ilford system of rapid fixer for shorter duration - however, there were reports of it causing a pink stain on Azo, which is what I use, so I stick to plain hypo.

Cheers, DJ

[jp]

water for stop. tf5 for paper (it doesn't stink), tf4 for film; stinky but works well. I suppose I could use tf5 for film as well, but I keep separate batches to keep the film fixer cleaner.

[sanking]

BTW, regardless of whether you use a fixer made up of ammonium thiosulfate or sodium thiosulfate it is not necessary to use a hypo clearing agent with film. The emulsion of film is very thin and both types of fixers are quite soluble so the fixer is easily and completely removed with a running wash that amounts to about twenty or more changes of water.

Some people argue that it is better to keep film in an alkaline state from the time development begins through the final fix, so they recommend a water stop bath rather than an acid stop bath, and an alkaline rather than acid fixer. What these people argue makes sense in theory, but whether it makes any difference in practice is highly debatable. Even with pyro type developers I have not observed any measurable difference in stain density with acid stop baths and a slightly acid fixer like Kodak F-5, and the alkaline fixers like TF-3, 4 and 5.

In my own work I use a dilute acid stop bath (acetic acid, 1/2 recommended strength), and TF-3 or Kodak F-5. I prefer F-5 with old school films that have soft, thick emulsions because the acid stop and fixer prevents the gelatin from swelling, which can make it soft and easy to damage.

Sandy

[Drew Wiley]

I generally use a very weak acetic acid stop bath. The exception would be when using amidol developers which are not alkaline to begin with (at least the
formula I use certainly isn't - it's slightly acidic), so in that case I use plain water. Not enough acid seem to carry over into the TF4 to make any difference.
For critical film work I do a brief water rinse between stop bath and the fixer. I never use hypo clear. Don't need to. And the fixer is always used one shot for
film or one session for paper, and discarded.

[Pitcherman]

I use kodak indicator stop bath at half strength and PF TF-4. wonderful stuff!!

[Roger Cole]

I currently use Rapid Fix but will probably be changing to TF-5 when my big "to make 5 gallons" jug of Legacy Pro RF runs out.

I use a citric acid based stop for paper that has an indicator. A couple of brands are available from Freestyle. I'm sure it costs more than just mixing it from citric acid but whatever, it's still cheap. I use water for film (now, after finally getting some of the infamous pinholes with Foma film. Never had those with Kodak or Ilford.)

[Gary L. Quay]

I use TF-4 for negatives and Clayton AFC Fixer for paper.

--Gary

[Will Frostmill]

Once again, thank you everyone, this has been very helpful.
These are the pros and cons I've picked up, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Citric acid stop + TF-4 (alkaline) fix
Con: acid & base interaction might cause pinholes some emulsions.
Pro: acid stops development quickly, so the soft x-ray emulsion spends less time soaking up water.

Water stop + TF-4 (alkaline) fix
Con: emulsion might get too soft in the water stop
Pro: no acid/base chemistry to worry about, eliminating Hypo clearing and/or extra washing at the end would make a bigger difference than which stop I pick.

Acid stop + Kodak F-5 fix
Pro: continuous acid environment slows gelatin swelling.

Conclusion: just about everyone likes TF-4, not everyone has the same problems, so I should just pick something simple and stick with it until something breaks :)

Will