R.B Cycle Graphic question: How do I R. the B.?

[Vincent Pidone]

Short version: How do I R. the B.?

Long version:

I bought a lovely 5x7 R.B Cycle Graphic, but don't know how to release the back to get it to rotate.

There is a little widget on the side of the case that is surely the answer, but I don't know how it works.

There is no evidence of wear on the part to guide me, and gentle probing with a screwdriver suggests that the brass that I can see behind it does not easily move.

I gather that several of you have owned these.

I have done casual due diligence here and elsewhere, and short of reading everything ever written in posts here there and everywhere, I don't see the answer, so I throw myself on your mercy for help.

[Jon Shiu]

Been several years since I have seen one, I am guessing the back is spring loaded and you move it upwards a bit to remove it?

edit: I think my camera was a ROC Premo, so different camera.

Jon

[Tracy Storer]

Iirc, you have to push the little button forward, which disengages the pin that keeps the back oriented. The "movement" of rotating the back can be stiff. Note that the back revolves in place like a turntable rather than coming off like most newer cameras.
A photo of the button might help jog my memory a little more.

[Tracy Storer]

Also, make sure the bellows is extended, if any pleats are buggered up inside the camera, it can foul the rotating movement. (won't do the bellows much good either )

[Jim C.]

If it's the exposed widget on the right side of the camera that's probably the catch that
releases the rotating back, that seems to be what the Graflex catalog (http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_20.html) says.
There might also be hidden buttons underneath the leather
to release the back off the camera like the ones on my Century Grand.

[Jim Jones]

Jim C. is right. Slide the pin forward to release the back, and backward to lock the back. It's a bit stiff on mine. Also, the back has to be carefully aligned with the body before the pin can lock it in position.

[Vincent Pidone]

OK, I got the idea.

How do you do it?

I'm starting to think that something is missing here.

I can see the pin going into the back.

I know that moving the pin toward the front of the camera will release the back, but I cannot see how to move the pin.

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[Vincent Pidone]

Sorry if that seems abrupt, I wasn't sure I would get the picture right in the post.

Thank you all for your input.

In the top picture in the previous post you can see the pin going into the back.

I would assume that some knob or whatever is missing except that the condition of the leather and the original finish on that metal part show no wear indicators that would hint that something was there and wore out or broke off.

There is no evidence of a hidden button, the thing is right out in the open.

You can't see anything inside the camera either.

The two wood screws make it clear that the round black recessed disc does not itself slide forward to release the back (not that I didn't try).

This camera was the basic chassis for the Cirkut camera, so maybe someone with one of those can help me out.

Mr. Galli?

The funny thing is that I was thinking to use this to do multiple plate panoramas before I found out that it was related to the Cirkut.

Thanks again.

[Jim C.]

Looks like you're missing the button head on that catch.
This is the catch for the gg door on my Century.

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Once you remove the recessed bezel, you should have access
to the spring and pin, you could replace the missing head with a
round headed nail of the right diameter,clipped to the right length.

[Vincent Pidone]

Thanks, that's the answer I need.

What threw me off is that there is no evidence of a former button wearing on the black painted brass plate on my camera.

Now all I gotta do is fix it.

[Leonard Robertson]

You may be able to poke the brass part (which shows through the oval hole in your pictures) with a fine knife blade or needle and rotate it to see if you can find a hole where the original pin was. Or the hole may be past the oval opening and not visible without moving the brass part toward the front of the body. I'm not sure how strong the spring is. The spring on the RB catch on my Cycle must be broken, as I can slide the catch back and forth and it stays in either position. But taking the two screws out will probably be the best bet.

Once you get your back to rotate, turn it 45 degrees and on the upper RH corner of the rear body you will see a round depression with a sliding metal catch recessed into it. Slide the catch toward the corner of the body and the revolving back will come off. It is removable so you can install the Cirkut Attachment after viewing and focusing with the RB in place.

Len

[Jim C.]

Thanks, that's the answer I need.

What threw me off is that there is no evidence of a former button wearing on the black painted brass plate on my camera.

Now all I gotta do is fix it.

I've come to believe that a lot of "painted" exterior camera parts might have been chemically blackened,
the tensioning control plates on the Graflex SLR I'm working on resisted my usual lacquer thinner scrub.

[Jim Jones]

There is no evidence of the back rotation lock pin on my RB Graphic ever having a head. There were some minor changes in these cameras over the 15 production years.
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[Vincent Pidone]

I've come to believe that a lot of "painted" exterior camera parts might have been chemically blackened.....

I'm certain that you are right.

I wrote "paint" in order to avoid further muddying the waters before my original question was answered. It's definitely not paint.

Chemical patina, and it looks to be rather thick.

If the part is brass it might have been done with "liver of sulphur" (common patina for jewelry).

If the part is steel, it might just be "fire scale" (i.e. iron oxide caused by heating the part).

Anyway, I intend to remove the two screws and see if I can install a brass pin in the catch, if not, I might thread the hole and use a screw.

I'll post some pictures, but this is "back burner" stuff, so don't hold your collective breath.

And yes, Jim Jones and Jim C. have two different style pins in the slider. Mine will likely be a third kind.

Thank you all.

[Vincent Pidone]

OK, here it is with the cover off:

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The camera back is on the left in the photo.

I can insert an xacto blade on the right side of the pin, which indicates that the pin doesn't go any further toward the front of the camera than you can see in the picture.

The pin won't turn (rotate) or slide easily, i.e. a gentle push with a scribe didn't move it.

Either the pressure from the back or the spring (which I can't see) or both, keeps it from moving.

Any ideas?

I don't see any access points inside or at the rear of the camera where I might otherwise get at this.

My sense is that this was not assembled through this window (which would have made repair easy) but from the inside.

I can try to cut a notch in the brass to gain some purchase for turning it, but would rather not if someone can come up with an alternative I've overlooked.

[Tracy Storer]

If the pin is all the way forward, the back SHOULD be free to rotate. Can you slip the blade into the gap also showing in your photo? If you can, you will either encounter the pin protruding, or you won't. If not, there is some other obstruction to rotation.

[Vincent Pidone]

Tracy,

The pin is all the way toward the back of the camera, i.e. fully engaged.

You can actually see that in the pictures that I posted if you look closely.

The pin is doing it's job of obstructing the rotation of the back (and quite nicely at that).

If this camera was a "beater" I could fix this in no time flat with any of several ugly kludges.

Unfortunately, it is in great original condition with the exception of the missing pin handle/button/whatever.

I also have a (I think) minor problem with the volute shutter, but that's for later.

[Jim C.]

Vincent, there looks like there's some 'gunge' on the locking pin, it might be just stuck and in need of some
more coaxing ( wiggling ) to free it self. I see something else in there on the right side, could be the spring
or a ball bearing, looks round.

A pair of good quality needle point tweezers like the kind to remove splinters could give you the grip you need
to slide it towards the front of the camera, there will be resistance because there's a spring in there
and it might also be gunged up. Once you can rotate the back you should be able to remove the pin to clean and size a new
lever for it.

[Tracy Storer]

If you're very careful, you could (on a drillpress, after removing the ground glass frame) drill a small clearance hole through the back to allow the pin to escape. Once getting everything apart, you could do a very clean repair of the hole.
Where are you located, by the way?

[Vincent Pidone]

Tracy,

I'm in Kingston, NY.

Again, because of the unusually good condition of this camera otherwise, I'm reluctant to take the rough and ready approach to fixing it.

Jim C.,

I'm sure that what's visible on the right of the brass is the spring that holds it in place to lock the back from rotating.

I'm kind of biding my time in deciding how to move this, somebody might still have the magic bullet.

[John Koehrer]

Be interesting to see Jim Jones' lock with the plate removed

Does the pin engaged in the back appear to be the same size as the visible part or is does it telescope into it? It would seem odd that there wouldn't be a metal tube to hold the locking pin. A drop of penetrating oil from a needle tip oiler would let you apply a controlled quantity to the shaft/tube if it does telescope.

A small hole drilled into the brass would allow the use of a tool to manipulate the visible portion. A problem if it is telescoping tubes is if you drill into/through it you may create a burr between the pieces creating another obstacle.

[Vincent Pidone]

Does the pin engaged in the back appear to be the same size as the visible part or is does it telescope into it?

It would seem odd that there wouldn't be a metal tube to hold the locking pin.

A small hole drilled into the brass would allow the use of a tool to manipulate the visible portion.

A problem if it is telescoping tubes is if you drill into/through it you may create a burr between the pieces creating another obstacle.

John, You're right on several counts.

I know what you mean about the internal burrs in telescoping tubing. I could be creating a lock that would be difficult to undo later.
I suspect that the pin has at least a "skirt" on the end to keep the spring centered on the locking pin.

My guess is that at the time this was made, installing a brass sleeve for the pin to slide in would have been considered "overbuilding."

It is indeed possible that I'm trying to move the sleeve that the locking pin slides in, but I expect that I would see a slot in the sleeve for the button to protrude from (kind of like one of those "bolt action" antique door locks). No slot is visible, so I assume that the simplest way this could have been designed is with a single brass pin sliding in a hole in the wooden body.

Depending on when my patience gives out I've been thinking about drilling a hole that would allow me a better purchase on the pin.

In the mean time I have carefully enlarged the hole around the pin hoping to find the original hole (no luck).

I have succeeded in scarring up the pin in my attempts to move it with tweezers.

I conclude, based on my inability to rotate or slide the pin that it is actually (accidentally) glued in the hole.

I'm reposting this picture:94533

The "sparkle" on the mahogany is glue. I suspect rabbit skin glue or some hide glue that was used to attach the leather covering.

There is no good reason (other than the workman being pushed to produce faster) for there to be any sign of glue under the metal part that I removed, yet that whole area is covered with a thin layer of it. That may be binding the pin. Again, the removed metal cover part had no sign of wear on the finish to indicate that a button had originally been there.

This, of course, does nothing to explain why the button that moved the pin in the first place is missing or how the pin rotated in the slot, etc.

[Jim C.]

The "sparkle" on the mahogany is glue. I suspect rabbit skin glue or some hide glue that was used to attach the leather covering.

There is no good reason (other than the workman being pushed to produce faster) for there to be any sign of glue under the metal part that I removed, yet that whole area is covered with a thin layer of it. That may be binding the pin. Again, the removed metal cover part had no sign of wear on the finish to indicate that a button had originally been there.

This, of course, does nothing to explain why the button that moved the pin in the first place is missing or how the pin rotated in the slot, etc.

One way to see if it's hide glue or possibly mucilage glue, moisten a paper towel bit with really warm water
and sit it on the hole for a half hour or more, if the sparkly areas feel slimy then it's glued.
I've been removing hide glue ( gelatin actually ) from a Edison cylinder player for the past week that way.
It might even loosen the pin enough to move.

Scarring the pin is no big deal easy enough to polish back out.

Lots of guesses as to why what is there, is there, it's a 100 + year old camera. :)

[Leonard Robertson]

I just removed the revolving back from my 6 1/2 X 8 1/2 Cycle Graphic. The pin which engages the hole in the revolving back is 1/8 inch diameter solid brass and it sticks out of the rear face of the camera body 3/32 inch. I can't tell if the "handle" pin that you are missing is threaded into the 1/8" dia. pin, or pressed in. I see no sign of a sleeve inside the hole in the body. Drilling a small hole or grinding an indentation to give you a spot to grab the pin with a tool seems the best idea.

Len