Lesson learned, never shoot analog at a digital event.

[Tin Can]

I am sad to report that volunteering to shoot Press cameras is a bad idea. It was my idea, a terrible one in retrospect. The public is so used to digital, and so demanding, I resorted to popping the flash, without exposing film, to keep them at bay. I have done that before, with digital cameras, in years past, at events, where the attendees want to be photographed, at their insistence.

I am so happy, I used an electronic flash, so I could accommodate them, and not burn, 100's of Press 25's.

Sadder, but wiser.

[Brian Ellis]

What's a "digital event?"

[ImSoNegative]

What's a "digital event?"

+1

[Leigh]

What are you raving about?

Is this some kind of chemically-enhanced reality?

- Leigh

[Jim Noel]

I photograph where and when I want, except for those areas overprotected by law or overzealous rent-a-cops. I use film only. So far as I know, there is n such thing as a "Digital Event".

[C_Remington]

Why would you let others dictate what and how you photograph?

At public events, why would you photograph people just because they say they want you to? Will they pay for the images? At least for your cost? Do they expect prints? Or are they the equivalent of the baboons in front of TV news cameras?

So you don't come across as a big prick.

[mandoman7]

A digital event is just about any meeting of photographers nowadays, I would guess. Once told that film runs $3 a sheet most people don't expect you to take many shots IME.

[Tin Can]

'Film' festival where it is all shown on cheap digital projectors and cell phone cameras rule. I was trying to shoot a few sheets with a baby Press camera. People kept demanding I take their picture. I was lectured by the publicity person. I gave up and left.

I shot digital gratis for 4 years for them. I was bored with that.

[gleaf]

Next year take a wet plate rig complete with suitably painful posing clamps for the long exposure.
Keep the subjects in place until developing is complete, you may need to redo the first shot...

After all it is your art form. Get that lopsided grin working and say softly.."I love those clamps...."

[Tin Can]

I was telling someone about posing clamps, they didn't believe me.

I will need to make some, every young woman here thinks she is a Dom...



Next year take a wet plate rig complete with suitably painful posing clamps for the long exposure.
Keep the subjects in place until developing is complete, you may need to redo the first shot...

After all it is your art form. Get that lopsided grin working and say softly.."I love those clamps...."

[C_Remington]

Next year take a wet plate rig complete with suitably painful posing clamps for the long exposure.
Keep the subjects in place until developing is complete, you may need to redo the first shot...

After all it is your art form. Get that lopsided grin working and say softly.."I love those clamps...."
Ha!!!!!

[goamules]

Sounds like the event or the photographer were a mismatch for some reason. The times I've shot film, and especially wetplate, it's always a big hit. Because anyone and everyone can shoot digital, most people love to see old school.

But I suppose there are a few events I wouldn't try to shoot film/wetplate: fast paced things like a fashion show, a NASCAR race, um...something like that. What was this event? Sounds like one where you shoot and are supposed to instantaneously show your shots. Not well suited for film, but I can show a wetplate 6 minutes after I shoot it, probably faster than a kid can upload something.

[Tin Can]

It was an event called http://cimmfest.org/ It is their 5th and busiest year. It may be the last, they really overdid it. They also might be the next South by Southwest. They have the founder of that mess on their board. The prior 4 years, I shot gratis digital, and produced at least 1000 shots in 4 days, each year. I spoiled them. At first I was the only shooter, then they recruited a student army, last year there were kids pushing me out of the way. I assumed they had it well under control, with piles of shooters. I told them I was not going to do what I used to do, but only shoot small quantities of film.

Well, they got too big and never got all the shooters they needed. They were bugging me to show up everywhere, and there was 19 venues, and lots of private VIP parties I was never informed of. They think I am a mind reader...sometimes I am...

I have really bad arthritis and often can barely walk or hold a heavy camera. I made no commitment and told them many times, I was not doing it like before. No assignment, totally freelance.

I skipped the first 2 days, they called and wanted me NOW! I told them Saturday at the main office, I would shoot a little.

They got very demanding, the head guy, one of my best friends, starts ordering to shot piles of shots, I refuse. Then the PR lady gets on me to do it as the she has a lot of VIP's coming. I shoot a little, I pop the flash without film and then I break camp and leave quietly.

I am sure they are cursing me right now at the awards ceremony. I don't care, I told them. I can't physically do it anyway. They screwed up, by not hiring a Pro, or even me, I could have done a lot. I could have got an assistant. Heck, I was advising 3 young female volunteers how to shoot the event. They came to me.

And they have piles of my equipment on loan, I sure hope I get it back.

Spilt milk, I am moving on.

[Tin Can]

OK, now you can poke fun at my lousy images, I only shot 10, I guess, 2 exposed clear negs. 1 looks double exposed and the rest are pretty bad. 2X3 sheet Arista 100 SB28 flash. You can find them on Flickr, if you scroll down you will find my digital shots from 2 years ago at the 3d CIMMFEST.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36341684@N07/

[RHITMrB]

Sounds like you gave an inch and they tried to take a mile.


Sounds like the event or the photographer were a mismatch for some reason. The times I've shot film, and especially wetplate, it's always a big hit. Because anyone and everyone can shoot digital, most people love to see old school.

But I suppose there are a few events I wouldn't try to shoot film/wetplate: fast paced things like a fashion show, a NASCAR race, um...something like that. What was this event? Sounds like one where you shoot and are supposed to instantaneously show your shots. Not well suited for film, but I can show a wetplate 6 minutes after I shoot it, probably faster than a kid can upload something.
I'd love to shoot NASCAR on LF. For me it'd be more about the goings-on around the race than the race itself, though.

[Tin Can]

I used to enjoy CIMMFEST, but they have pumped up the pressure, while I want to slow down. I enjoy the crowd far more than the main events which are movies and music performances.

My images are harsh as I wanted to simulate straight flash bulb 40's reporter style. I had the SB28 bare full power aimed right at the subjects.

I learned a few things. I just posted a couple images to the main man and he seemed to like them. So far the digital images from the event are worse than mine...imho



Sounds like you gave an inch and they tried to take a mile.


I'd love to shoot NASCAR on LF. For me it'd be more about the goings-on around the race than the race itself, though.

[Colin Robertson]

If you came away with some images which please YOU, then job done.
A (good) few years ago while I was still a student I was asked to cover a social event, where some ancient and venerated member of the dental team got his gold watch. Scouted the location in advance, and knowing it was a 'wall of glass' venue I knew there'd be good light on the day. Shot MF HP5 in a Yashicamat, with a little 35mm as insurance against film or processing failure. Ended up with some nice prints, promptly delivered.
The organisers chose to use a single image, and cropped a wide ambient portrait into a mug-shot. The grain was stupendous.
Next time, go undercover and do your own thing guerilla style.
ps- sounds like a good gig for a TLR- waist level, quiet, allows high level overhead, and in the sweet spot for quality versus convenience.

[Tin Can]

I wasn't trying to be inconspicuous or even successful. I could have pulled out any number of better rigs. I had a great digital camera in my pocket, I refused to use. I was saving that for a Russian invasion. You know, news. The event's director was begging me to shot digital. If he had paid me I would have. I already had loaned them plenty of equipment, I hope I get back. My F5 with the same flash would have produced perfect images. I was trying to have a good time, put on a little show and learn how to use a Press camera. In public. My images are horrible, nonetheless, I prefer them to cell phone images. I prefer them to instagram. My money, my time, my hobby.


If you came away with some images which please YOU, then job done.
A (good) few years ago while I was still a student I was asked to cover a social event, where some ancient and venerated member of the dental team got his gold watch. Scouted the location in advance, and knowing it was a 'wall of glass' venue I knew there'd be good light on the day. Shot MF HP5 in a Yashicamat, with a little 35mm as insurance against film or processing failure. Ended up with some nice prints, promptly delivered.
The organisers chose to use a single image, and cropped a wide ambient portrait into a mug-shot. The grain was stupendous.
Next time, go undercover and do your own thing guerilla style.
ps- sounds like a good gig for a TLR- waist level, quiet, allows high level overhead, and in the sweet spot for quality versus convenience.

[Len Middleton]

But I suppose there are a few events I wouldn't try to shoot film/wetplate: fast paced things like a fashion show, a NASCAR race, um...something like that.

Not wet plate, but have photographed sports car racing hand held with a Technika 45, mostly with 56x72 roll film back, but also 4x5 B&W.

[rdenney]

...I am sure they are cursing me right now at the awards ceremony. I don't care, I told them. I can't physically do it anyway. They screwed up, by not hiring a Pro, or even me, I could have done a lot. I could have got an assistant. Heck, I was advising 3 young female volunteers how to shoot the event. They came to me.

And they have piles of my equipment on loan, I sure hope I get it back.

Spilt milk, I am moving on.

Randy, I have frequently provided advice to younger professionals in my line of work, who seem intent on ruining their lives and marriages over this or that perceived work crisis. "Whatever you give, they will take." Meaning: Only you can set boundaries. When you don't set boundaries, they will work you to death, and then when you do set boundaries, they react as if you are their slave--they wouldn't treat an employee like that, because an employee has some rights and they have many responsibilities as an employer, and volunteers have no such protections (except that they can walk away). Many amateur photographers have learned this lesson. I've learned it several times.

I will still work for free. But I never work without a contract, especially if the client and I are friends (and NEVER for a wedding). One of the terms of the contract is: "I will do my best, but I am receiving no compensation for this activity and owe no responsibility to produce a product. If any circumstances, including my own incompetence, result in not a single picture being delivered, you agree to accept all risk, and you further agree to remain my friend." Not enforceable, of course, but it is a legal document that prevents them from treating me like a professional when I do not desire that responsibility. If they want a professional they can sue (meaning a professional who can afford errors and omissions insurance), then they have to hire one. A few times, they read my contract and decide to hire a pro despite their financial situation. A few times, they laugh as if it is a joke (I assure them that it is not). Most of the time, they sign it, clear-headed. (I never do this work for people who can afford a pro and are just trying to get out of paying--they have already demonstrated an unwillingness to be honest when they complain to me about the price in hopes of persuading me to save them some money, and their signature therefore means nothing.)

One of my mentors--the man who taught me to use a darkroom when I was 15--did a wedding during my brief time with him. He was a retired professional photographer and printer, but still did the occasional work for friends as an amateur. At that wedding, he accidentally nudged the sync control to "M", but he was using a Honeywell Strobonar potato masher flash on his Century Graphic. None of the pictures were usable. The situation that followed created a lasting impression for me.

Rick "whatever you give, they will take" Denney

[rdenney]

What are you raving about?

Is this some kind of chemically-enhanced reality?

- Leigh

Leigh, with all due respect, this is the only raving I see in this thread. Therefore, I must ask: Was your response chemically enhanced?

Rick "just sayin'" Denney

[goamules]

You're spot on Rick. I work in a field somewhat similar to photography, instructional design. I author training materials, often web-based training. Even though I always make an outline first, get it approved, then make a comprehensive storyboard based on that outline, I still fight the ambiguous desires of the clients. In my early days my team tried to be super creative and nice, and always go the extra mile. If the pilot training client said "we want something creative..." we'd build a virtual cockpit. If they mentioned having an online video, we'd use at least one in every lesson. But I learned that whatever we authored and delivered, would get hacked apart by the reviewers, who would then have more content to recommend further revisions to. My rule became "the more you give them, the more they can screw you with" with one customer that was always looking for problems. I work dozens of projects a year, and you can be certain each one will go through the outline and storyboard approval with flying colors, then someone at the end will look at the final, programmed web-course and have dozens of change requests. We're often asked to add back things we'd recommended doing in the storyboard, but had them removed in that early stage.

The other relevant story is when I helped a metal craftsman with his decorative arts business for a few months. These were cut out things you'd hang on your wall; suns, Kokopelis, quails, etc. There were 3 finishes the customer could order, each a handmade, chemical process that made a "patina" of mottled colors. EVERY time a female customer (sorry gals) would order one or more of our items, she'd start looking at the finish samples and say, "I'd like mine to have more turquoise color than this shows." We'd say they all come out differently....that's the art factor....each is unique...etc. And EVERY time when they came to pick up their order, they'd say, "no...this won't work...this has too much blue....I want more turquoise....please redo it. Now." And the owner would send the metal art back to the shop to be sanded back down, re-polished, plated with copper, and "try again" refinishing. Often this was for a $39 item. We'd have more into it than that with all the rework.

He believed "the customer is always right." I believed you have to set boundaries.

[SergeiR]

My friend, used to say "let one have a free ride on your neck and you suddenly will find there is whole line behind him" (he actually was very polite and charitable dude. And that is how he died - saving little girl).

[Don Dudenbostel]

'Film' festival where it is all shown on cheap digital projectors and cell phone cameras rule. I was trying to shoot a few sheets with a baby Press camera. People kept demanding I take their picture. I was lectured by the publicity person. I gave up and left.

I shot digital gratis for 4 years for them. I was bored with that.

No good deed goes unpunished.

I'm not an amateur, I've been a professional for nearly fifty years and like giving back to the community but...

Never shoot gratis jobs. They never value you or your work. If they pay they understand it has value. I did 3 14 hour days grratis for the united way doing stills for ads and was the lighting director for the TV. None of the crew got paid but I found out the agency that was doing the ads and spots did. We never even got a thank you. After this and a couple more similar experiences I've sworn off freebies.

[lenser]

I have to add my own experience that was similar to Don's.

A local charity had an on air auction and had gathered many thousands of dollars in donated items including five family portraits from me with a value of well over $1000.00. They sold well and the winners were delighted, but never did I hear from the charity until......you guessed it.....same time a year ahead when they expected an even larger donation. It was my very enjoyable duty to my business to tell them that they damn well better learn how to say thank you in a timely way if they ever expected to keep their donations at a decent level. By the way, their next year's donations overall were less than half of what they had been the year before. I suspect that no one was thanked and that many other business owners felt as I did.

[redrockcoulee]

Some of the local organaizations like the Stampede Board have arrangements with our local photography club. We get free access to the events and non commercial use of the images and in return they get to use the images for whatever use they have. We do not replace the professional photographers that cover the pro rodeo circuit and they are happy with whatever they get. The only limit they impose is we register the names of the photographers and they give out only 6 passes. Spent some of this weekend covering the spring indoor event. We also do this for several other organzations. They all know they get what they get and some of our members are fairly new to either photography or to this type of photography.

The important thing in our relationships with these groups is they know that they are swapping opportunities for opportunties and the expectations that they have on any one individual or on the group are reasonable. That is the important point, both parties view it as favours to each other and neither views it as a business contract. There are no assignements as any photos that they actually do require they make arrangements with some one on a professional basis, or more likely rely on the local newspaper. It works because the expectations on both sides are realistic, and it is a relatively small community, smaller in many ways then the 60 000 pop suggests.

But then also the Stampede as been going since just before the previous century

[Tin Can]

As many have commented gratis work is never valued. A shame. I am an honorary member of a large DIY punk rock community. Much of what we all produce is amateur and free, music, movies and art. Basically the movement says just start and do it yourself, your way. I think Frank Sinatra sang that. The forerunners come from at least the 60's, Andy Warhol, The Ramones, Outsider Art, etc. Some people do rise to the top and become venerated. http://www.melvinvanpeebles.org/ was one and a star of http://cimmfest.org/.

I regret I lost my enthusiasm for CIMMFEST as I have watched them become stars in their own minds and what we call 'users' (that's an a big insult and a pun). I wish them success, but I am done.

old hipsters, just get old

[paulr]

What's a "digital event?"

Last time I photographed a reception for robots, they complained that fumes from my polaroids were causing corrosion in their quantum arrays.

[Drew Wiley]

Every social setting is a digital event these days. One cannot even sit down in a restaurant at peace without some kind of
cell phone ruckus going on in the background. I was trying to take a nap in my truck the other day and some woman in a
sedan about fifty yards away was screaming and cussing into her cell phone for about half an hour. Why didn't she just turn
the volume up? I figure that within the decade genetic engineers will find a way to program the human genome so that
digital devices automatically grow inside the brains of the next generation. Of course, there will be less room in there for brain matter per se, but medicinal pot will allow honeycombing of the appropriate lobes, which will be deemed obsolete anyway.

[Scott Davis]

In the software development industry, there's an adage that really applies to any custom-work industry: "you can have it good, you can have it cheap, you can have it fast. Pick two". There should be a corollary to that saying: "you can have it good, cheap, fast, pick two. If you want it free, that's the only choice you get..."

I learned my lesson about free work the easy way - it was my cousin's wedding. They had hired someone, who it turned out took horrible photos. I did it as my present to them. They oohed and aahed over the photos, told me I saved their wedding with my photos, and said they'd be ordering reprints and enlargements. They've been married around 17 years now and I have yet to get an order.

I also used to shoot for a local charity organization doing AIDS/HIV education work. I was shooting film, and we had an agreement that they would cover my materials costs. They loved the photos but started balking over the $35 they had to pay for the film and prints after each event, and they also thought that they should own the negatives and the copyrights for that $35. They then found some sucker with a digicam who would do the whole thing for them for free including burning the images to CD (this was a good 15 years ago also, when consumer digicams were in their early stages, and 35mm film was still superior in quality to any digital camera that cost less than $3000). After that I quit doing charity photography.

[Tin Can]

Yes Drew, I am sure cell phones will move into the body.

I can't wait. I already gave up my cell phone, it was as annoying as beepers once were.

The only way to contact me is with email.


Every social setting is a digital event these days. One cannot even sit down in a restaurant at peace without some kind of
cell phone ruckus going on in the background. I was trying to take a nap in my truck the other day and some woman in a
sedan about fifty yards away was screaming and cussing into her cell phone for about half an hour. Why didn't she just turn
the volume up? I figure that within the decade genetic engineers will find a way to program the human genome so that
digital devices automatically grow inside the brains of the next generation. Of course, there will be less room in there for brain matter per se, but medicinal pot will allow honeycombing of the appropriate lobes, which will be deemed obsolete anyway.

[Jac@stafford.net]

He believed "the customer is always right." I believed you have to set boundaries.

Buyers are liars.

[Drew Wiley]

It's all a big conspiracy, but how it will pan out, I have no idea. The geeks are trying to develop alternate life-forms based upon silicon rather than carbon. The plastic surgeons have already developed silicone life forms. Monsanto is trying to exterminate every species which can't metabolize genetically-modified high-fructose corn syrup. And there are several other
companies which have substituted the ACTG DNA-sequence with a chain of MSG... (not sure what the fourth component is yet...). We'll just have to evolve.

[SergeiR]

Yes Drew, I am sure cell phones will move into the body.

time for upgrade to Human 2.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NejmRupa54I

[Tin Can]

...'worse than dead, upgraded.' Coming soon to schools everywhere, too late for us...


time for upgrade to Human 2.0.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NejmRupa54I

[goamules]

One of us could always host an iphone workshop for $7500 http://www.focusonnature.is/photo-workshops/art-of-iphone-photography-iceland/

[Tin Can]

No way, not unless Ken Rockwell is there! I have my principles...

lol or crying, not sure



One of us could always host an iphone workshop for $7500 http://www.focusonnature.is/photo-workshops/art-of-iphone-photography-iceland/

[cepwin]

Rotfwl. :)

next year take a wet plate rig complete with suitably painful posing clamps for the long exposure.
Keep the subjects in place until developing is complete, you may need to redo the first shot...

After all it is your art form. Get that lopsided grin working and say softly.."i love those clamps...."

[barnninny]

It's all a big conspiracy, but how it will pan out, I have no idea. The geeks are trying to develop alternate life-forms based upon silicon rather than carbon. The plastic surgeons have already developed silicone life forms. Monsanto is trying to exterminate every species which can't metabolize genetically-modified high-fructose corn syrup. And there are several other
companies which have substituted the ACTG DNA-sequence with a chain of MSG... (not sure what the fourth component is yet...)

Ball bearings.

[Tin Can]

It all started with shot towers.

[Scott Davis]

It's all a big conspiracy, but how it will pan out, I have no idea. The geeks are trying to develop alternate life-forms based upon silicon rather than carbon. The plastic surgeons have already developed silicone life forms. Monsanto is trying to exterminate every species which can't metabolize genetically-modified high-fructose corn syrup. And there are several other
companies which have substituted the ACTG DNA-sequence with a chain of MSG... (not sure what the fourth component is yet...). We'll just have to evolve.

It could be "plastics".... or it could be "precious bodily fluids".

[Pat Kearns]

What's a "digital event?"

This will probably get deleted but a "digital event"......... is a visit to a Urologist. OUCH...okay, the Devil made me say it.

[gleaf]

I love the concept of the $7500 workshop complete with additional unannounced airline style fees (payable at check in)....

[Tin Can]

Update.

Late night meeting with CIMMFEST principals was interesting. They acknowledged they had a very successful event, but failed at photo and video documentation. Their student army did not work out. They have few images. They loved my ornery photographer character with an old camera and wish to engage me for next year. These are all good friends and neighbors. But, I think they were sincere. They were drinking and celebrating.

CIMMFEST 6 starts work today and I will be better at WeeGee imitation by then.

life goes on.