Super Graphic Vs Field Camera viewer options

[dimento]

Hi guys, slightly cryptic subject line, basically I am looking to make the use of my Super Graphic more spontaneous and was wondering what reflex viewer options are out there.

I am also debating consolidating my 4x5 options by selling the Super Graphic & a Sinar F1 and getting a modern-ish field camera, which would have the portability of the Graphic but more movements.

My questions are two-fold

1. What viewer options exist for the Graphic (including conversions)
2. With folding field cameras like Toyo, Horseman, maybe Rittreck, what viewer options exist?

Thanks in advance

D

[John Kasaian]

FWIW, I make use of the sportsfinder on my speeder when I want spontaneous.

[BrianShaw]

me too. an accurate rangefinder plus sports finder, or even the accessory Graphic viewfinder, is a rather quick option.

[unixrevolution]

I third the repsonses for the sports-finder. I Would have likely never bought a Super Graphic, but would have instead gone for a field camera, if not for the ability to shoot completely handheld.

I frequently use my Graphic as a polaroid rangefinder. (See Avatar.)

[Kuzano]

Dimento,

Before you stray from the Super Graphic, take a look at two pages on Stephen Gandy's Cameraquest web site for a full blown review of the features of the Super Graphic in stock form and a page of modifications to extend it's movement capacity. In fact, I will be interested if you already know the "hidden movements" Stephen reveals. I was on my third Super before I found them, with the help of the CameraQuest page. See here:

http://www.cameraquest.com/supergrp.htm

and here:

http://www.cameraquest.com/supercov.htm

I purchased my first Super in the late 80's, and subsequently went the full circuit with Press, Technical, Monorail and field cameras. And I am talking about multiple cameras in all those categories. I have come full circle and am now back to the Super. I have two now, and one is undergoing a severe modification routine to lighten it, expand the movement, plus add a tilt to the back, similar to the back on the Gandy page, but with a different attachment and control system. In my journey I have come to two conclusions:

1) You don't have to spend a ton of money, unless you buy and try as many times as I did. I probably, after the mods will have $200 and a pound plus lighter. I stripped out all the rangefinder and electronics and whacked an inch off the top of the body. Machined the top of the body and added an aluminum plate Flat Top. Removed all the rangefinder stuff in the top of the camera.
2) Although I have as much in movements as the Super will bear, movements for my style of photography (patient but lazy) are somewhat over-rated.

In fact I used to have a LF shooting partner, who once asked me when I had a super flexible Shen Hao, "Why do you never use the movement's on that camera?" I responded, "Because I want to shoot, not fiddle with my camera." He then asked, "Then why in the hell did you spend nearly $1000 on that camera.. just for pretty?"

Shortly after I sold the Shen. Been on the cheap ever since.. although semi retirement does that to one.

Oh yes, on the reflex viewer, creatively speaking it should be relatively easy to mod an existing reflex viewer. There is nothing super critical about a reflex view, it's just a mirror held at a 45 degree angle from the ground glass, that may be enhanced optically at the viewing opening. I have heard that one of the backs for Cambo/Calumet backs will fit the Super back. There are other backs as well. In fact, I haven't tested it, but it's a future test I have to do to reduce the camera weight even more.
I am somewhat sure that if you take the back off the Super to reveal the Graflok slides, that the standard ground glass holder with door from a graphic (Crown or other) will fit. In that case, I am sure there is a reflex viewer which did fit in the ground glass area of the earlier cameras. I think that simple replacement (but without the reflex viewer) will reduce the weight of my Super by another half pound. There's a lot of un-necessary metal in that hulking back n the Super.

Good luck.

[Jac@stafford.net]

[...] snip excellent article [...] "Oh yes, on the reflex viewer, creatively speaking it should be relatively easy to mod an existing reflex viewer. There is nothing super critical about a reflex view, it's just a mirror held at a 45 degree angle from the ground glass, that may be enhanced optically at the viewing opening."

That is perfectly correct. May I add that if one makes his own reflex viewer, or replaces the mirror in an existing one, that ordinary rear-reflective mirrors might be problematic in regards to viewing (not focus accuracy). Double images, or something like it sometimes appear depending upon the refractive index of the glass, further effected by its thickness. An ideal would be a surface (plated) mirror. Somewhere here I have a couple of Polaroid MP angle viewers. I've even gaffer-taped one in place and it worked, but clumsily.

OP - a second voice for a wire-frame viewer along with the rangefinder. Light, quick and surprisingly accurate!

While a bit OT because it is unorthodox, but once I had a generic, magnifying right-angle finder for a 35mm SLR. I drilled a hole in the center of the ground glass cover, and placed the viewfinder into the hole and wiggled it to be just the right distance from the ground glass. That served as loupe focusing. Not ideal, but neither is true rangefinding. Then I used the wire frame. It worked.

[dimento]

wow thanks for all the replies, should have mentioned, the rangefinder is not working, sports finder is an option but I tend to shoot reasonably tight portraits and find the darkcloth approach a little slow and cumbersome, thanks @ jac and @kuzano for your very detailed replies, I will certainly check that mods page, cheers, D

[BrianShaw]

In that case, maybe a Hasselbad would be the better tool??

[Kuzano]

Dimento,

If the red button system is the part that is inoperative on your Super, don't spend a lot of time or money on repairing that function. If the range finder works and you have proper cams for your lenses, then focus will be usable. All the red button does is shoot a current through the electronics to a solenoid on the front standard to trip the shutter with the "very special" Super lens board. The biggest potential problem with the red button system is that the current is carried to the front solenoid through three foil ribbons embedded in the folds of the "very special" Super bellows. That bellows has been NLA for many years, and I have been on an intensive hunt for someone who would make such a difficult bellows... NADA.. not in the US or England for NAME bellows makers. (little story aside, I did find a fellow in Hawaii, who said he could, and had many good reviews. I sent him $157 to get started on the bellows. He strung me along for about three months, and then disappeared, along with my money and the money of other people. He was the only fellow I found who seemed to know about the internal foil wiring in the bellows and said he knew exactly what to do. Funny story huh? Only time I have ever been ripped off in 40 years of photography gear acquisition.)

In any event, it's a lot less expensive to bypass the red button system and mount a remote cable shutter on one of the corners of the body, direct to the shutter mechanism... just as you would have to do with any other field or monorail camera. So the only part of the range finder that needs to work in calibration with the lens is the camming system in the camera. You may think it does not work because you may not have a cam inserted inside the top of the camera, and the cam must be cut to the lens focal length. If you get that fixed or working, no one can fault how accurate the rangefinder is that is built into the Super graphic.

THE MAN in my book for service on the Super, or any Graflex is Fred Lustig... listed in the phone book in Reno NV listings. Fred worked for years with Graflex untll they shut down, and I heard that he bought all the Graflex inventory that was originally sold to MPEX when Graflex shut down. I saw somebody post that they had Fred do some work for them a couple of months ago. I had him do work for me, and he did replace a Super OEM (used in good condition) bellows on one of my Supers a few years ago... perhaps 4 or 5. He was down for a while before I used his services, but appears to be back in biz continuously for the past few years. Great guy to talk to and no matter where you live he may invite you to come see his shop. We talked long about the Super Graphic, and his (I call it) fantasy about refurbing and re introducing the Super Graphic in as-new condition.

[Kuzano]

In that case, maybe a Hasselbad would be the better tool??

Gosh brian...

Not unless it shot REAL film, with REAL Acreage...

OK, well my fall back is also Medium Format.. Fuji Texas Leica G690 BL.6X9. Wish I could do with that acreage, what I can do with 4X5, or 3.1 times the surface area???

Just harassing you////:cool:

[dimento]

In that case, maybe a Hasselbad would be the better tool??
thanks I already shoot with both a Blad and a Mamiya RZ and an 8x10 I'm just trying to inject a little spontaneity into the 4x5 process

[dimento]

Dimento,

If the red button system is the part that is inoperative on your Super, don't spend a lot of time or money on repairing that function. If the range finder works and you have proper cams for your lenses, then focus will be usable. All the red button does is shoot a current through the electronics to a solenoid on the front standard to trip the shutter with the "very special" Super lens board. The biggest potential problem with the red button system is that the current is carried to the front solenoid through three foil ribbons embedded in the folds of the "very special" Super bellows. That bellows has been NLA for many years, and I have been on an intensive hunt for someone who would make such a difficult bellows... NADA.. not in the US or England for NAME bellows makers. (little story aside, I did find a fellow in Hawaii, who said he could, and had many good reviews. I sent him $157 to get started on the bellows. He strung me along for about three months, and then disappeared, along with my money and the money of other people. He was the only fellow I found who seemed to know about the internal foil wiring in the bellows and said he knew exactly what to do. Funny story huh? Only time I have ever been ripped off in 40 years of photography gear acquisition.)

In any event, it's a lot less expensive to bypass the red button system and mount a remote cable shutter on one of the corners of the body, direct to the shutter mechanism... just as you would have to do with any other field or monorail camera. So the only part of the range finder that needs to work in calibration with the lens is the camming system in the camera. You may think it does not work because you may not have a cam inserted inside the top of the camera, and the cam must be cut to the lens focal length. If you get that fixed or working, no one can fault how accurate the rangefinder is that is built into the Super graphic.

THE MAN in my book for service on the Super, or any Graflex is Fred Lustig... listed in the phone book in Reno NV listings. Fred worked for years with Graflex untll they shut down, and I heard that he bought all the Graflex inventory that was originally sold to MPEX when Graflex shut down. I saw somebody post that they had Fred do some work for them a couple of months ago. I had him do work for me, and he did replace a Super OEM (used in good condition) bellows on one of my Supers a few years ago... perhaps 4 or 5. He was down for a while before I used his services, but appears to be back in biz continuously for the past few years. Great guy to talk to and no matter where you live he may invite you to come see his shop. We talked long about the Super Graphic, and his (I call it) fantasy about refurbing and re introducing the Super Graphic in as-new condition.
Thanks @kuzano, I think the red button is working (need to source batteries) but the rangefinder mechanism may be missing the internal plunger, I will take your advice though and may contact Fred lustig, cheers, D

[IanG]

I'm the fourth to say I use the sports finder on my Super Graphic, I use my hand-held quite frequently in Turkey and it's fine even with a 90mm. I haven't fixed the rangefinder yet I bought a cfamera dirt cheap with issues

In the UK I use a field camera, a Wista 45DX more movements but I do like working with the Soper Graphic, I've yet to find it has failings, there's enough movements for me :D

Ian

[BrianShaw]

thanks I already shoot with both a Blad and a Mamiya RZ and an 8x10 I'm just trying to inject a little spontaneity into the 4x5 process

Understood. I've been down the same road. My experience has been that the Hassy is better tool, but when 4x5 is needed/wanted the only way to introduce spontenaity has been with a working rangefinder.

In addition to Fred, consider contacting Steve Choi at Steve's Camera Repair in Culver City CA also. Both are great. Steve is a little younger than Fred and still operates a storefront shop.

[BrianShaw]

p.s. My "red button" still works, although my batteries are now depleted, and that has been valuable to me for sponenaity too. And with my Anniversary Graphic, a flash handle has done the same function. I like the electric shutter release capability!

[dimento]

again great tips, thanks to all. In terms of spontaneity with large format have a look at the work of Alastair Thain who has built several models of TLR large format shooting 9 inch or so rollfilm, originally used by NASA, his images are epic: here he is with camera: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stojanka/326082138/ and here with images on dsiplay: http://www.creativetourist.com/articles/art/manchester/hello-boys/ and to show you the scale: http://www.designweek.co.uk/features/commercial-work-an-overview/1136620.article

I was fortunate enough to assist him, very briefly

[dimento]

any source for batteries folks?

[BrianShaw]

I buy from whatever source is cheapest and seems reliable. I goodle around for a source every time I have the need. The price varies a lot, and it seems like no single source has ever really been a reliable supplier.

[Kuzano]

I believe the Everready Carbon Zinc EV412 is the battery you want. I also believe it is still in production. The last time I bought the correct batteries I purchased from MPEX (Midwest Photo EXchange).

I agree with BrianShaw. Shop... these batteries should be available from many sources. Avoid the EV505 22.5 volt as it is round and not the right size.

[anglophone1]

again great tips, thanks to all. In terms of spontaneity with large format have a look at the work of Alastair Thain who has built several models of TLR large format shooting 9 inch or so rollfilm, originally used by NASA, his images are epic: here he is with camera: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stojanka/326082138/ and here with images on dsiplay: http://www.creativetourist.com/articles/art/manchester/hello-boys/ and to show you the scale: http://www.designweek.co.uk/features/commercial-work-an-overview/1136620.article

I was fortunate enough to assist him, very briefly

Saw this work at Tate Britain some time ago, v.cool!
I use the RF and frame finder approach with my speed/aero ektar, works well, better in fact than the RF/optical finder on my Technika, where I do find a reflex viewer good but not spontaneous enough.....
David Burnett uses a cambo reflex viewer on his speed, so may work on a super graphic ( graflok back?)
I also have Hass and RB but having come from the Leica direct vision school of 35mm a hundred years ago, still find reflexes not spontaneous-you are not looking directly AT the subject....
So my answer Razzle or Fuji GSW/gw effectively Leicas on steroids.
Come down to West Cork and have a play with them some time!
C

[Thebes]

I have a Cambo reflex viewer on one of the non-rotating Cambo back's focusing panel. This fits perfectly on my Super Graphic when I remove the stock focusing panel.
It works well, though I think I am getting out of my S-G kit as I don't currently have the health to shoot handheld.

My procedure for doing handheld with movements was as follows:
-Hold camera in left hand with strap, view through reflex finder, fiddle with movements and focus with right hand.
-Fiddle more, really its not very ergonomic and if you need to hit the catches to do front tilt you need to use both hands for that. Lots more fiddly than on a tripod, at least to me.
-Decide I like it and lock it down.
-Being very mindful not to move the camera, look up through the wire-frame finder. Note carefully where it's corners lay upon the scene.
-Set the lens and holder
-Easily return the corners of the wire-frame finder to where they had been upon my scene.
-Use the magic red button to release the shutter when the moment is right.

I find that the reflex viewer snugs well up to my body when I do this and makes the camera more stable- its a bit like shooting a rifle off-hand.

Like I said though, my health has failed to the point I can't do this right now... I am too shaky when I try and its too hard to be that active with a camera and a hernia.
It definitely takes more physical effort to shoot like this than to use a tripod, but I've gotten a number of shots I don't feel I could have with the tripod.

[dimento]

Saw this work at Tate Britain some time ago, v.cool!
I use the RF and frame finder approach with my speed/aero ektar, works well, better in fact than the RF/optical finder on my Technika, where I do find a reflex viewer good but not spontaneous enough.....
David Burnett uses a cambo reflex viewer on his speed, so may work on a super graphic ( graflok back?)
I also have Hass and RB but having come from the Leica direct vision school of 35mm a hundred years ago, still find reflexes not spontaneous-you are not looking directly AT the subject....
So my answer Razzle or Fuji GSW/gw effectively Leicas on steroids.
Come down to West Cork and have a play with them some time!
C


Thanks Clive, will do, and if you're up this way let's meet for a coffee or a drink, cheers, D