Dating Derogy lens

[mylek]

Hi,

is there any data concerning Derogy lenses's serial number or date of manufactured?
Around which year, the etched crown start to appears on the barrel of the lens?

[Steven Tribe]

Yes.
I'll get back to you, am busy with re-doing an achromat's balsam.

[Steven Tribe]

The date will have to be by deduction.
The first Derogy's didn't have numbers.Then they did - but I don't think they started from 0001!
I enclose some engraving types and the earliest number I can find with a serial number and the crown. I think the "Paris et Londres" was introduced at the same time perhaps out of respect for Queen Victoria!
The one illustrated is a RR so it must be from around 1870 at the earliest.
So compare your serial number with this one.
Corrado's book has much better quality photos.

[mylek]

Thanks Steven!

I read the book and there is not much about them concerning date even in the lens's vade mecum. Mine is 13xxx, so i figured it might be after 1870 from what you're writing.

[Steven Tribe]

Is it a RR - like the one shown?
To be honest, I doubt whether Derogy would have imported this into the UK until the Dallmeyer Patent had expired.

[mylek]

No, it is a bayonet type petzval.

[Steven Tribe]

I found the Derogy importer for the period 1860-65 (Chapman Lloyd). They may have started their own office in London after this time. But I think that the mostly likely date is 1880.

[mylek]

Thanks!
That will give me a good idea...

[Steven Tribe]

The idea that the crown was added to the serial number sometime between a period 12,000-13,000 has been rather destroyed by a 5*** serial number with crown! So perhaps the sequence given by Corrado is just a co-incidence and the crown engraving was the start of a whole new serial number sequence?

[Steven Tribe]

The idea that the crown was added to the serial number sometime between a period 12,000-13,000 has been rather destroyed by a 5*** serial number with crown! So perhaps the sequence given by Corrado is just a co-incidence and the crown engraving was the start of a whole new serial number sequence?

This is not correct (The idea of a new serial number series) and I was tempted to edit the comment!
There is now a great deal of information available in Pont et Princelle's booklet (no. 16). The date of the patent (Foyers multiples 1858) means that 4,000 is around 1858.

[Steven Tribe]

Unless anyone can suggest a reason why I shouldn't, I will use this thread to build up a table of lens types from Wallet, Hermagis & Derogy and Derogy from around 1855 until about 1865. There are a number of different engravings, serial numbers/no serial numbers lens edge markings etc.
There is some data in D'Agostini and le reve edition, but I think we can do better!

[Steven Tribe]

Before I start any listing, I would like to summarise the known history of the "Derogy" brand. This is basically extracted from the standard modern descriptions by Pont/Princelle and L'Agostini - neither of which is available online!

Wallet founded the company (Optician) pre photography in 1820. In the 1840's and early 1850's he had two members of staff called Hermagis and Derogy. There are apparently no lenses engraved with Wallet alone, a few with "Wallet & Hermagis" most, if not all, achromatic types. The next engraving types include Derogy and exclude Wallet, " Derogy & Hermagis". There is only one engraved example of this and our own "Eddie" had a plain barrel lens with pencil edge markings of "Derogy & Hermagis". Derogy married Wallet's daugther , Elisabeth Adele, in June 1852 and Hyacinthe Hermagis left to form his own establishment! None of the lenses with these early engravings had serial numbers but would be very welcome in the listing.

Derogy continued until 1926, although the name stumbled on until around 1970.
Apart from the large production of early Petzvals, Derogy had a respectible production of Aplanats in all sizes. Minor highlights were his version of the "Globe" and of Puyo's anachromatique Pictorial lens.

Le Reve listing of serial numbers is below.

1858. around 4,000
1860. 10,000
1870. 15,000
1880. 20,000
1890. 25,000
1900. 30,000
1910. 35,000
1914-1920. 45,000

Earliest known is 436 (Retro-engraved?)- highest 45,187.

Interesting he made exactly 5,000 lenses every decade!!

ADDED MAY 2020Earliest genuine engraving is 3808 which is foyers multiples with the serial number also engraved on the "plus petit" extra lens (The other one is lost)
4290 is almost certainly 1858 as it the earliest FOyers Multiples which had a French Patent date of March 1858.

Writing on the side of lens will not be very helpful here as I havn't seen any!

There are many, many variations in the engraving, including a sub-set for the UK?
Derogy did not make projector lenses (At least, with his name on them)! so all non-serial number Lenses are early (plain?) Petzvals.

[jaytral]

An early "Verre Combinés" sn10522, only engraved "Brevet d'Invention DY à Paris". Definitely a Derogy

201104 201105 201106

[Steven Tribe]

This one has always been a Unicum! The brass is obviously correct, but why DY?

I don’t believe the Pont sequence - with 10,000 being about 1860. The patent Foyers Multiples did sell well, but a sale of 6,000 from 1858 - 1860 doesn’t seem realistic.

[Two23]

I have one of these. Mine is complete with the two little inter-lenses and some washer stops, plus the little between lens housing. Brass lens cap looks the same as yours, as does the flange. Mine says, "brevet di invent/s.d.g.g./Derogy, Optn./a Paris./Derogy/V (crown logo) R/Patent. No serial number. Any idea of date? I was guessing 1858. I have a second lens, no serial number. It's engraved: Brevet d invention/s.g.d.g./Derogy/a Paris. No serial, no crown logo, no slot for stops. Is bayonet barrel like the other one.


Kent in SD

[Steven Tribe]

We are lucky (or, perhaps unlucky!) in that Derogy had a whole range of different engravings!

Perhaps these represent different dates, but perhaps not. There is certainly a range of English language engravings - including the UK crown symbol (Harry and Meghan!) and V R ( Victoria Regina). Perhaps we will get some idea of whether there is a obvious date (serial number) link with the actual engraving type.

using my own small collection/D’Agostini/Pont, I can see the following variations

French / English market. ( V R, “Crown”, Patent)

Opiciens/Optn/Fabt.

PARIS/Paris/a Paris/Paris & Londres/Paris Londres

Brevet d’Invention - used only with Objectif foyers multiples (“patent” on English versions)

Brevete - probably only used on Aplanats

Engraving on the “additional lenses” of the Foyers Multiples. These can be in the face or the sides of the loose lenses (see attached photo)

Will add to this list of different varieties of engraving as other variations are identified.
Eventually we will have a check list for (nearly) all Derogys.

[Steven Tribe]

I have been looking at the details of the brass work on various illustrated and own Derogy Petzvals and there seem to be a few changes during time. In particular, the style of the turning knob on the tangential drive exists in two distinct versions. There are indications that there is an early model and a late model. Petzvals without serial numbers and Waterhouse slots have the older version, whilst the later, with serial numbers, have the simpler lathe finish.
The older and the newer wheels are shown below.

[Steven Tribe]

I have another (unique?) engraving - probably from the few days when Derogy was deciding how to engrave his lenses for the UK market!
First half is the standard French Foyer Multiples - second half is “Derogys V crown R Patent.” No serial number.

The second half has a slightly deeper engraving - an addition?

Extra: May 2020 UK auction.
There is another identical example of the english/french engraving at this auction.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

We are lucky (or, perhaps unlucky!) in that Derogy had a whole range of different engravings!

Perhaps these represent different dates, but perhaps not. There is certainly a range of English language engravings - including the UK crown symbol (Harry and Meghan!) and V R ( Victoria Regina). Perhaps we will get some idea of whether there is a obvious date (serial number) link with the actual engraving type.

using my own small collection/D’Agostini/Pont, I can see the following variations

French / English market. ( V R, “Crown”, Patent)

Opiciens/Optn/Fabt.

PARIS/Paris/a Paris/Paris & Londres/Paris Londres

Brevet d’Invention - used only with Objectif foyers multiples (“patent” on English versions)

Brevete - probably only used on Aplanats

Engraving on the “additional lenses” of the Foyers Multiples. These can be in the face or the sides of the loose lenses (see attached photo)

Will add to this list of different varieties of engraving as other variations are identified.
Eventually we will have a check list for (nearly) all Derogys.

Although I don't have a Derogy lens in my little lens collection, I saw another variation; one that entails the address in Paris:

"Derogy Optn
Breveté s.g.d.g.
quai de L'horloge 33
Paris" (without serial number)

[Steven Tribe]

Yes!
Not common, though - just used at the start.

There are two examples in the le Reve booklet - both on achromats.

Wallet & Hermagis Opticiens Quai de l’Horloge 33. Paris.

Derogy Opt. success. de Wallet Qua de l’Horloge 33 Paris

[jaytral]

Don't forget at this period, most part of early opticians in Paris were located Quai de l'Horloge (Chevalier, Wallet, Derogy, Lerebours etc.. ) and often at the same adresses: 31, 33, 65, 67, 69, 71, 77, 77bis Quai de l'Horloge.
At first Chevalier was located at 31 and 33 Quai de l'Horloge, and later Wallet & Derogy, and Hermagis etc...

Numbers from 45 to 77bis disappeared later when the "Square du Vert Galant" was built at this place due to the regular Seine flood. Just behind the great "Statue Equestre du Roi Henri IV".

And It is perhaps at the foot of the statue of Henry IV that the first photograph of a human being was taken. Indeed, the daguerreotype (7.2 x 10 cm) of the Pont-Neuf by Daguerre and Fordos, kept at the "Museum des Arts et Metiers", which shows in its lower part the image of two reclining people (perhaps loaded workers maintenance of the statue) seems to have been carried out during the summer of 1837 (taking into account the foliage of the trees). This photo would therefore be prior to the famous photo of Boulevard du Temple with the shoe shiner.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Just saw this one come by...nr. 11303......it has just been sold: https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Obj-DEROGY-PETZVAL-1-4-PLAQUE-AVEC-SA-BAGUE/274377599055
note that Paris is a bit oddly engraved..and the engraving is a bit rough compared to other lenses I've seen

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YmQAAOSwewpezNsa/s-l1600.jpg

[pgk]

I don’t believe the Pont sequence - with 10,000 being about 1860. The patent Foyers Multiples did sell well, but a sale of 6,000 from 1858 - 1860 doesn’t seem realistic.

It would be interesting to create a table showing comparative serial numbers/date/manufacturer if for no other reason than to understand just how large the market was for lenses in the early years of photography and therefore the potential production of some lenses at least.

As examples:
Ross from around 1840 was up to somewhere between 6-12,000 by the mid-1860s
Dallmeyer who started on his own in 1860 was up to a serial number of ~11,000 by the end of 1865
but these are of total production of photographic lenses.

[Steven Tribe]

Just saw this one come by...nr. 11303......it has just been sold: https://www.ebay.nl/itm/Obj-DEROGY-PETZVAL-1-4-PLAQUE-AVEC-SA-BAGUE/274377599055
note that Paris is a bit oddly engraved..and the engraving is a bit rough compared to other lenses I've seen

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YmQAAOSwewpezNsa/s-l1600.jpg

There is a lot of variation in Derogy engravings - text, language and depth of engraving.
I have checked the “le Reve edition” booklet for a similar engraving, without success! But my post #3 shows a photo that has a good approximation to the recent eBay one, as well as the “odd” copperplate flourish at the end of “Paris”!

Here is a better image from the d’Agostini book.

[hudilafulianji]

This lens was negotiated by me after the autumn auction of flints auction.
The number is not found at the edge of the glass and element rings where it should normally be.

[Steven Tribe]

This is not a problem - actually, it is quite surprising that so many DO have the markings after so many years!

[Philippe Grunchec]

My RR Derogy has number 13475 and the inscriptions are on the left of the lens when you face the camera.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

My RR Derogy has number 13475 and the inscriptions are on the left of the lens when you face the camera.

That must be a very early RR ....any picture of the lens?

[Ron (Netherlands)]

...just seen this one...seems in beautiful shape:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50891149297_b96fa6fa2e_b.jpg

[Steven Tribe]

I have discovered a Derogy lens series which shouldn’t exist!

Most of this thread deals with the start of Derogy and the early models. The traditional demise of Derogy is given as just after WW1 - going up to around 45,000 in serial number.

Pont and Princelle mention something about various activities of the remainder parts of the company after production was halted - but nothing about further lens production.

I have seen and purchased 2 Derogy engraved lenses with serial numbers in the 60,000’s and 70,000’s. Barrel engraving has been abandoned, but the traditional crown has been retained in miniature! The lens series an “anstigmat symmetrical” F6 - looking very similar to the Duplouich Verax.

I also found two earlier listed Derogy lenses from the same seller, but slightly slower F6.8 and with serial numbers in the 45,000’s (the last photo).

[Steven Tribe]

Some further special Derogy lenses.

1. Late pillbox style with a third glass in the rear achromat. Not registered in Pont et Princelle. Serial number 22440.

2. Derogy’s simplified version of the de Pulligny adjustible landscape. Serial no. 32995. The huge example shown in P et P is 60cm. This one has a gun metal finish and just F8 and efl 30cm.

[Buttboardeur]

Hi all !

I'm new on this forum... i have not found a "presentation thread" then i hope all is ok.

I'm not a Large Format Photography specialist at all but i've found some things that may interest you here. I'm looking informations about these things :

https://i.ibb.co/tPr4wdj/IMG-20210604-102055.jpg (https://ibb.co/dJYrshC)
https://i.ibb.co/LQ3fzXk/IMG-20210604-102103.jpg (https://ibb.co/vsS8x6w)
https://i.ibb.co/RDDFsqt/IMG-20210604-102122.jpg (https://ibb.co/MCCvtmK)
https://i.ibb.co/Kq3sDXP/IMG-20210604-102146.jpg (https://ibb.co/VSPCxt1)

Could you tell me what is it exactly ? I've found some information on the internets but you here seems to be specialists !

What i can say is that the number is 16 775. More, on one lens, there is written Derogy Lens 1902 but difficult to make a good picture of it as it seems to be written with pencil.

Thanks a lot for your help,
Craig

[Steven Tribe]

A serial number of 16,775 suggests it was made in the early 1870’s. By 1902, Derogy was up to around 30,000! Derogy was not good about writing production dates on lenses. I suggest it was written there by someone servicing the lens in 1902 - perhaps regluing the lens.
Size no. 3 should be a rectiliinear (aplanat) covering 13x18cm with a focal length of 22cm and a lens diameter of 33mm.

The other lens is a more modern version of the Aplanat- with a multi-leaved Iris.

[Buttboardeur]

OK thanks a lot for your reply ! Very Interesting...

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Nice one I guess: nr. 11671 (I'm not the buyer)
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/324858696158?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11010.m1951.l7533&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=c8e90b93d10745968b40ec9929e813ab&bu=43085500681&ut=RU&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20211110061702&segname=11010&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cut%3Dut%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid

[Steven Tribe]

Not many Derogys get sold because of speculative BIN prices on that site. This one was a very welcome auction and gave an idea of the realistic level for Petzvals. The item gives a good impression, but no information about what is inside.

I have found another 60,000 Derogy - just a few numbers away from one I had already.