PDA

View Full Version : Threading Stainless Steel Shafts



Curt
9-Apr-2013, 18:27
First I read about the machine technicalities and metallurgic properties, I once worked in a chemistry lab of a foundry, then I sourced advice from "experts", machinists, and old timers. Finally I bought a new die set, not the Harbor Freight junk, the expensive high speed steel ones. For hand threading the major diameter is the key, along with lubrication and slow threading with small advances. It's not brass! This metal is really hard. It heats up and sticks if enough care isn't taken. I wasn't sure at the outset that I could cut decent threads in stainless steel shafting but it worked. I'm threading the ends for SS knobs and using SS gears on it. This is all going on the camera I'm building. X2, front and rear drive shafts, bearings, gears, and knobs. One never stops learning.

Nathan Potter
9-Apr-2013, 18:37
Curt, nice going, I think you have the idea. It's a slow process of threading by hand and it may help by having the diameter of the piece slightly under sized. Also use the best cutting oil. When threading, go a bit then back off letting the cutting chips fall free. Then continue, alternating cutting with backoff.

What is the diameter of the piece you are threading. Also what stainless alloy are you using? Low chrome and higher nickel content will help. Type 316 is a bitch while 25-5 is a lot easier.

Good luck.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Leigh
9-Apr-2013, 20:10
What alloy? There's a big difference.

- Leigh

Tin Can
9-Apr-2013, 20:12
Curt,

I'm a hack. I worked in a materials test lab for 30 years. My main mission was make it fast and just good enough, since we trashed every set-up as soon as we were done. Custom does not always means highest quality.

I admire your efforts. Tapping and cutting can be difficult at first. Everything you learn will be useful again.

I would have tack welded the knobs to the shaft with a Mig welder. Done in a jiffy. I was team leader, my meticulous understudies always preferred beauty over speed.

We await your camera, DIY lives!

Curt
9-Apr-2013, 20:45
1/4" and I'm going to get several pieces and see which is the best. I'm interested in a D-Profile in 303 but I had a thought about how accurate the gear hubs set screws are located. That could be unfortunate. Machinability verses hardness is a determining point too. I'm aiming at a single material instead of say brass and stainless mixed. Many old wood cameras have done very well with brass for the shafts, racks, and pinion gears though. The problem I have decided to work out is getting the gear specifications, bore and OD, pitch, etc., to work with a shaft that requires a diameter specified for the knobs I have picked out. Without elaborating on the details it's a choice between knob style and hub size verses pinion hub bore. It's just one of the many technical exercises on this project. I'm enjoying it though and that makes a world of difference.

Erik Larsen
9-Apr-2013, 20:46
Curt, if you have any problems, you can try all thread rod instead. I hate working with stainless, it's my nemesis:)
Erik

Curt
9-Apr-2013, 21:11
Curt,

I'm a hack. I worked in a materials test lab for 30 years. My main mission was make it fast and just good enough, since we trashed every set-up as soon as we were done. Custom does not always means highest quality.

I admire your efforts. Tapping and cutting can be difficult at first. Everything you learn will be useful again.

I would have tack welded the knobs to the shaft with a Mig welder. Done in a jiffy. I was team leader, my meticulous understudies always preferred beauty over speed.

We await your camera, DIY lives!

Nate, Leigh, and Randy, thanks for the feedback it's all excellent. I have an Oxy Acetylene but no TIG here at my home shop. I'm not adversed to having a machine shop thread the ends but I'm confident I'll be able to do the job. I have what I think is a 303 shaft that earlier I threaded to 10 32. That piece was 3/16" and I had to reduce the diameter but the threads came out great. Nice and smooth. My standard is the Ebony line. I'm using Rosewood and Ebony, no Restricted Wood, but no titanium. I don't expect to achieve the Ebony status but getting as close as I can will be rewarding. It's going to be an 11x14 and I have already made a film holder to ANSI specs and that's very detailed. I'll show it at the end. It's in a different species, the final wood has been in the shop for years and is as stable as its going to get. I have a wood shop so I put a lot of pressure on myself to get a fine product. At 61 I've had a lot of technical background and college along with my Seabee stent and can do attitude from the Navy and Vietnam.

Curt
9-Apr-2013, 21:15
Curt, if you have any problems, you can try all thread rod instead. I hate working with stainless, it's my nemesis:)
Erik

Erik, that's right, there are SS tubes with ID clearance that makes it look good. If all else I could use that for the visible portion and not have a problem with it. That falls into a "best fit" option. Thanks for mentioning that option.

Leigh
9-Apr-2013, 21:44
Since you need to buy the gears and racks anyway, why not buy the shafts and other fittings?

McMaster-Carr has a large selection www.mcmaster.com with no minimum order.

Stock Drive Products www.sdp-si.com has a huge selection of gears and shafting.

- Leigh

Curt
9-Apr-2013, 22:21
Since you need to buy the gears and racks anyway, why not buy the shafts and other fittings?

McMaster-Carr has a large selection www.mcmaster.com with no minimum order.

Stock Drive Products www.sdp-si.com has a huge selection of gears and shafting.

- Leigh

Reid, Nordex, Berg, and others, I've buried myself in these. It's interesting about McMaster Carr. The have a huge selection of products. I had it all together but needed a shaft threaded on both ends. I saw their line about if you don't see it ask and we'll get it. After several email exchanges they sent a one liner. "We don't thread shafts". Talk about being misunderstood, I just shook my head. It's a lot like going to the hardware store looking for the right combination except through mail order fit and finish is only suggested by little photos on a screen. You have to "shop around" and find the right parts. At least it's with a cup of coffee. I'm no Howard Roark though and a compromise to get a good fit is fine. If I had $15,000 and a years wait I'd get an Ebony but what's the fun, and torture, of that.

Leigh
9-Apr-2013, 22:58
You didn't ask for the right thing.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#threaded-precision-shafts/=m97rqp

- Leigh

Tin Can
9-Apr-2013, 23:11
Leigh, stop that!

You are linking to really cool off the shelf parts. Next I will want to build a camera. Ye gads! Stop!

McMaster does have a deep catalog. The warehouse is 10 miles from me. I order tiny amounts and I have it the next morning, faster than Amazon. Sometimes by special courier. They treat every customer as if you are an idle factory waiting for parts.

Leigh, please do not stop!

This is all very interesting.

I have enough projects...

Leigh
10-Apr-2013, 00:06
McMaster is run the way American companies used to be run, putting the customer's interests ahead of their CEO's wallet.
They've been around for something like 125 years. That attitude was the norm when they started.

Too bad more companies don't follow that model.

I get one or two orders a week from them. Great people to deal with.

- Leigh

Curt
10-Apr-2013, 01:56
You didn't ask for the right thing.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#threaded-precision-shafts/=m97rqp

- Leigh

I carefully contemplated them but the smallest diameter starts at 3/8" and I needed a shaft longer than that listed. I was very pleasant in my communications with them.

Curt
10-Apr-2013, 02:20
McMaster is run the way American companies used to be run, putting the customer's interests ahead of their CEO's wallet.
They've been around for something like 125 years. That attitude was the norm when they started.

Too bad more companies don't follow that model.

I get one or two orders a week from them. Great people to deal with.

- Leigh

One thing about them is they have never fouled up an order. You get what you ordered. Reid is excellent too. Where McMaster Carr had brass gears Reid has stainless steel gears. Same with knobs, McMaster has brass and Reid had stainless steel. The two have aluminum and plastic somewhat in common. Prices between them is a factor. Reid isn't as extensive but they carry items from companies like Kipp. Between the two and some others it makes project builds easier. Stores like Lowes and Home Depot are home improvement centers not hardware stores in the old sense. Lowes dropped taps and dies in order to put in more house brand tools. Kobalt, kome on now really. Home Depot only carries taps and taps and dies packaged in fours. Very limited at that. Four dies and a handle. A fellow at lowes told me he shops at Ace. I went there and they carry just a few taps and dies. They were out of 1/4 20 and didn't know when they'd be in. Sound familiar? I'll be shopping at Tacoma Screw and Stellar industrial here locally as a secondary means. Metals by mail works great. I could drive the 30 miles down and 30 miles back but online is easier.

Erik Larsen
10-Apr-2013, 05:48
Hi Curt,

Another option I have used is to get a smooth shaft of the correct diameter for your gears and then weld on a small section of all thread on each end for the knobs. I didn't use stainless but rather regular old hot rolled from tru value hardware. Just a little tack from the mig and a little grinding and it works like a charm.
Erik

Scott Walker
10-Apr-2013, 07:21
Stainless steel is a wonderfully metal to work with but it does take a bit of experimentation to get perfect results when doing any machining. Having a good understanding of the properties of the metal is paramount as well. My area of expertise is with 316LVM, 316, and 304. Probably the most universally important aspect of machining these alloys is a good lubricant, we used jokisch paste. We tried every available product and the jokisch paste gave us the best finished surface quality by a big margin and also the longest tool life. Chances are you will not be working with fully annealed metal and work hardened stainless is indeed a bit more difficult to cut threads in. If you are threading rod it is important to get the die started squarely, believe it or not you can actually thread a rod crooked and it is way easier to get the threads crooked than straight. The easiest way to ensure the threads start straight is to cut the rod square and taper it at the proper angle and taper it uniformly all the way around, if you have a lathe this is pretty simple, if not a drill press or even a hand drill will help, you can spin the rod in the drill and get the end fairly square and evenly tapered with a smooth or second cut mill file. We literally made miles of threads in stainless steel, some utilizing a lathe or jigs to ensure the thread was square and some entirely by hand and either way the results sucked if someone got sloppy squaring and tapering the rod before threading. I also sharpened all of our taps and dies to my own specs for cutting stainless, which helps greatly as well, but likely not necessary for your application.

Roger Thoms
10-Apr-2013, 18:38
Curt, the few times I have threaded stainless steel I purchased high speed steel taps and dies. I had no success with non high speed steel. Also Scott Walkers advice on starting the die square echoes my experience. For one project that required 4 inches of thread on 5/16" rod I had to have a friend with a Lathe help me out. I just couldn't get the die started squarely enough be hand.

Btw when are we going to see photographs of you project?

Roger

Curt
10-Apr-2013, 19:28
Stainless steel is a wonderfully metal to work with but it does take a bit of experimentation to get perfect results when doing any machining. Having a good understanding of the properties of the metal is paramount as well. My area of expertise is with 316LVM, 316, and 304. Probably the most universally important aspect of machining these alloys is a good lubricant, we used jokisch paste. We tried every available product and the jokisch paste gave us the best finished surface quality by a big margin and also the longest tool life. Chances are you will not be working with fully annealed metal and work hardened stainless is indeed a bit more difficult to cut threads in. If you are threading rod it is important to get the die started squarely, believe it or not you can actually thread a rod crooked and it is way easier to get the threads crooked than straight. The easiest way to ensure the threads start straight is to cut the rod square and taper it at the proper angle and taper it uniformly all the way around, if you have a lathe this is pretty simple, if not a drill press or even a hand drill will help, you can spin the rod in the drill and get the end fairly square and evenly tapered with a smooth or second cut mill file. We literally made miles of threads in stainless steel, some utilizing a lathe or jigs to ensure the thread was square and some entirely by hand and either way the results sucked if someone got sloppy squaring and tapering the rod before threading. I also sharpened all of our taps and dies to my own specs for cutting stainless, which helps greatly as well, but likely not necessary for your application.

Scott, I spent some real time searching for the points you listed here. If I had read a description like this I would have been way ahead of the curve. I'm experienced with tap and die threading but Stainless Steel raises the bar. The lubricant is imperative and the type is important. I read about alignment and calculating formulas for finding the major and minor diameters. 60 & 90 degree angulation and other specs. In college I completed calculus, trig, and geometry but reading some descriptions caused me to go to sleep. So I beveled the end to start after I reduced the shaft diameter a little. For the real deal I'll use calipers and use more care. The threads were full depth though so I did something correct. When cutting I advanced the die only a 1/16" then backed it all the way off. Maybe overkill but it made the motion very smooth. The bottom line is cutting threads is a skill that takes practice and it is a valuable skill when learned correctly. Thanks for the instructions!

wombat2go
10-Apr-2013, 19:31
Curt
I just made a micro-focusser which connects to a pinion on a rack and is driven by a micro robotics gearmotor. Backlash had to be a minumum.
The main part was the 1/4 inch 20 tpi UNC 60 degree threaded leadscrew which I made of brass on the 1936 South Bend lathe.
The first leadscrew I made was bent, so i made another one as carefully as I could with cuts of about 4 thou inch to closely fit the nut.
It is useable but still not perfect; a very small runout in the leadscrew causes a magnified perturbation in the motion.

I think one problem is the minor diameter of that 1/4 inch thread- the material yields while the thread is being cut and next time I would use next larger diameter.
And maybe a finer pitch which is shallower.And maybe 4130 Chrom-moly which does not look so elegant but is much stronger and still quite free cutting.
You might have the same problem in threading the stainless, as 304 etc is not much higher yield than brass.
I find with ordinary all-thread, the tolerance is too loose when I use my standard taps for the internal thread.
Good Luck with your camera!

Curt
10-Apr-2013, 20:01
Curt, the few times I have threaded stainless steel I purchased high speed steel taps and dies. I had no success with non high speed steel. Also Scott Walkers advice on starting the die square echoes my experience. For one project that required 4 inches of thread on 5/16" rod I had to have a friend with a Lathe help me out. I just couldn't get the die started squarely enough be hand.

Btw when are we going to see photographs of you project?

Roger

Hi Roger!

I know about getting the die started. I actually thought I could just do it like brass. Boy was I wrong. The preliminary setup is so important with SS and the lubricant. I used a steel thread cutting lubricant in a tin can like three in one oil. I need to get the right one. I'll go to a screw and bolt company tomorrow.

The reason I didn't get a metal lathe was the length of time it would take to learn thread cutting. There are too many ways to get sidetracked! I do believe in the right tools. It would have to go in the space where my 24" thickness sander is located. Never enough room.

What did Michelangelo Buonarroti say to Pope Julius II when the Pope asked when it would be done? "When I'm finished". Actually I put a photo of some materials and a film holder on Facebook. I've been too busy to hang out there recently. Like Steve Smith said: CAD / CAM, computer router. I'm learning a 3D software and designing the braces, brackets, and other parts in stainless steel. It's taking all my design, materials science, mechanics, machine capabilities, and CAD skills to make it work. At first I had some awful 3D views. I would rotate and a section would be missing or way too long or disconnected completely. I'm back on the learning curve again. It gets easier with practice. .387 actually looks like something now. Holes are void to the proper depth. Empty inside. One design error and a fifty dollar part is four hundred and fifty. It's good for the mind though. This is a lot like construction work. Nothing seems to be getting done then all of a sudden it finished.

Tin Can
10-Apr-2013, 20:19
I hope they let you do this at work.

We used to call it a government job.




Hi Roger!

I know about getting the die started. I actually thought I could just do it like brass. Boy was I wrong. The preliminary setup is so important with SS and the lubricant. I used a steel thread cutting lubricant in a tin can like three in one oil. I need to get the right one. I'll go to a screw and bolt company tomorrow.

The reason I didn't get a metal lathe was the length of time it would take to learn thread cutting. There are too many ways to get sidetracked! I do believe in the right tools. It would have to go in the space where my 24" thickness sander is located. Never enough room.

What did Michelangelo Buonarroti say to Pope Julius II when the Pope asked when it would be done? "When I'm finished". Actually I put a photo of some materials and a film holder on Facebook. I've been too busy to hang out there recently. Like Steve Smith said: CAD / CAM, computer router. I'm learning a 3D software and designing the braces, brackets, and other parts in stainless steel. It's taking all my design, materials science, mechanics, machine capabilities, and CAD skills to make it work. At first I had some awful 3D views. I would rotate and a section would be missing or way too long or disconnected completely. I'm back on the learning curve again. It gets easier with practice. .387 actually looks like something now. Holes are void to the proper depth. Empty inside. One design error and a fifty dollar part is four hundred and fifty. It's good for the mind though. This is a lot like construction work. Nothing seems to be getting done then all of a sudden it finished.

Curt
10-Apr-2013, 22:08
Curt
I just made a micro-focusser which connects to a pinion on a rack and is driven by a micro robotics gearmotor. Backlash had to be a minumum.
The main part was the 1/4 inch 20 tpi UNC 60 degree threaded leadscrew which I made of brass on the 1936 South Bend lathe.
The first leadscrew I made was bent, so i made another one as carefully as I could with cuts of about 4 thou inch to closely fit the nut.
It is useable but still not perfect; a very small runout in the leadscrew causes a magnified perturbation in the motion.

I think one problem is the minor diameter of that 1/4 inch thread- the material yields while the thread is being cut and next time I would use next larger diameter.
And maybe a finer pitch which is shallower.And maybe 4130 Chrom-moly which does not look so elegant but is much stronger and still quite free cutting.
You might have the same problem in threading the stainless, as 304 etc is not much higher yield than brass.
I find with ordinary all-thread, the tolerance is too loose when I use my standard taps for the internal thread.
Good Luck with your camera!

I'm always thinking about the amount of slop resulting from the original diameter of the shaft. Under sizing might make it easier but the result may not be acceptable. Especially with a floating threaded knob. I've seen adjustable dies and once used one. I once had a set of taps that had a starter, standard, and bottom tap. These are the problems to be dealt with all right. Backlash can bring down the whole build. I had thought of helical rack and pinions but the placement and mounting is strict. There is an force outward against each rack. Everything's a trade off. Your project sounds interesting. Controlled motion can be complicated.

Bernice Loui
10-Apr-2013, 23:30
303. 304, 304L is commonly used for stainless steel machined parts.

Cutting fluid does matter, but more important is good quality high speed tool steel cutting tools that are sharp in excellent condition. Beyond that, there are thread limit specs that should be observed, this affects thread fit with the mating part.

The most common problem with producing external or internal threads is alignment. Even a small amount of off axis alignment of the cutting tool to threads will create problems.

The worst problem with cutting threads with a die is at the end of the threads where the cut threads meets the un-threaded part of the shaft. The rough and sharp edges create a serious stress riser that can cause the metal to tear and fail. That area should be smooth out on a lathe using a radii tool.

Better external threads are produced by rolling, not cutting.

Stainless steel threaded rod is an easy off the shelf item. Threaded rod comes in a variety of sizes and thread pitch and materials.


Bernice

Drew Wiley
11-Apr-2013, 08:16
Takes me back to my more youthful days when I sold supplies to machinists, and stocked an almost bewildering array of
taps and dies myself. I've threaded a fair amt of incidental 300-grade stainless over the years with no issues. So about the only contribution I'll make to this is to point out that the avg home center or hardware store version of a die is nearly worthless. You'll want to purchase these from someone like McMaster too.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 08:33
As a long time metal hacker. Many times you need to make or modify tools. Evens taps are not sacrosanct. I would grind them to fit my purpose. I have 3/4" pipe tap I welded to a 1/2 impact drive, so I could power tap aluminum castings with my single purpose tool. The tap tip was also shortened to not penetrate the casting too far and destroy the still assembled machine.

Learning to sharpen drill bits by hand on a grinder is very useful. not perfect, but useful. A Russian mechanic taught me that, thanks Crazy David.

Now, on this site, I am learning how to modify glass. Amazon tools are coming today! AN glass cracking tomorrow...

Drew Wiley
11-Apr-2013, 08:59
I never was a machinist myself, but learned the tricks from an ex-NASA machinist and optician ... long story. I'm pretty much
a career jerry-rigger, which is something very beneficial to my current job. They actually seem to like me fooling around and
dabbling into, and jabbering about every crazy thing that comes along, because it gives me the experience to know what I'm
talking about and selling to others. Finding someone equally foolhardy to fill my shoes when I retire is going to be the real
challenge.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 09:11
ME!

oops, I am already retired.

I sold Snap-On Tools for 5 years, now that was fun. Inner city ghetto route with lot's of crazy smart immigrants that loved my tools.



I never was a machinist myself, but learned the tricks from an ex-NASA machinist and optician ... long story. I'm pretty much
a career jerry-rigger, which is something very beneficial to my current job. They actually seem to like me fooling around and
dabbling into, and jabbering about every crazy thing that comes along, because it gives me the experience to know what I'm
talking about and selling to others. Finding someone equally foolhardy to fill my shoes when I retire is going to be the real
challenge.

Drew Wiley
11-Apr-2013, 09:21
Randy - I do find the changing demographics to be quite interesting. I've got quite a crop of immigrants, and the first thing they do is get firmly licensed, get a nice truck, logo, and website, then go out a buy the very best equipment they can find.
They are doing top-quality work, hiring and equipping their employees with good gear too, and utterly beating the pants off
the traditional crowd of deadbead dropout painters and contractors. It's all about efficiency. I also like dealing with them because they don't shoplift like the other category. Business is really really good, but I'm getting tired.... Can't keep running
this show along with the darkroom in the evenings. So my time is nearing to become a public bum myself, part of the 47%
sponging off the system, one of the evil baby-boomers making sure the younger generation will have to retire over 90!

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 09:32
well, sponging...

i find it sad, we are no longer needed

Drew Wiley
11-Apr-2013, 09:53
... I'm needed in the darkroom. ... and I've got so many things lined up after I retire it makes my head spin just thinking about them. But it sure will be nice to be able to sleep an extra hour a day!

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 09:56
I am very busy, so busy, I am not sure how I ever worked for the Man.





... I'm needed in the darkroom. ... and I've got so many things lined up after I retire it makes my head spin just thinking about them. But it sure will be nice to be able to sleep an extra hour a day!

Scott Walker
11-Apr-2013, 09:56
Bernice and Drew bring up a very good point; you will not cut good quality threads with poor quality tools regardless of technique or cutting fluid.
In the 15 years that my company was manufacturing cool stuff made from stainless steel we were able to refine our cutting tool suppliers to about the best out there.
A Swiss company supplied 1 specific tap and a German company supplied the die to match, I bought from a company in the USA and from one in the UK and from another in Germany. These company’s only supplied 1 or 2 specific tools because they out preformed what should have been the exact same tool supplied by another company. To really put the importance of good quality tools into perspective, we required a drill bit that could handle work hardened 316 and our go to company for drill bits was an American company that had manufacturing facilities in Germany, France, Brazil, and the US supplying them. The one bit we used specifically for hardened stainless absolutely had to come out of the plant in Brazil, and if not they would start to chatter and snap almost immediately. These bits were all supposedly made from the same steel and finished to the exact same specs but didn’t even come close to one another in quality. We could punch a couple hundred holes with a bit from Brazil and on occasion we would get one that would go 1,000 + but that was extremely rare. Every once in a while we would run the Brazilian plant out of bits and have to use the US & German versions, we were lucky to get 20 holes out of one of these and had to sharpen them after each hole or two. I don’t believe we were ever able to successfully drill a hole with one of the bits from France.

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 15:28
303. 304, 304L is commonly used for stainless steel machined parts.

Cutting fluid does matter, but more important is good quality high speed tool steel cutting tools that are sharp in excellent condition. Beyond that, there are thread limit specs that should be observed, this affects thread fit with the mating part.

The most common problem with producing external or internal threads is alignment. Even a small amount of off axis alignment of the cutting tool to threads will create problems.

The worst problem with cutting threads with a die is at the end of the threads where the cut threads meets the un-threaded part of the shaft. The rough and sharp edges create a serious stress riser that can cause the metal to tear and fail. That area should be smooth out on a lathe using a radii tool.

Better external threads are produced by rolling, not cutting.

Stainless steel threaded rod is an easy off the shelf item. Threaded rod comes in a variety of sizes and thread pitch and materials.


Bernice

Bernice,

I've experienced the weak point at the neck where the threads end. That's the point of failure alright. I bought a new high speed steel die but how many iterations will make it a dull high speed steel die. Upon inspection under a magnifier I can see how sarrated the ridges are on the thread I cut. I totally agree that rolled threads are superior to die cut threads. I actually looked for a tool that could do that. I have a hand held knurler that does a great job. Better done on a lathe than by hand, like threading and turning. This is another nod for off the shelf threaded rod. Thanks.

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 15:37
Takes me back to my more youthful days when I sold supplies to machinists, and stocked an almost bewildering array of
taps and dies myself. I've threaded a fair amt of incidental 300-grade stainless over the years with no issues. So about the only contribution I'll make to this is to point out that the avg home center or hardware store version of a die is nearly worthless. You'll want to purchase these from someone like McMaster too.

That's a point I've learned. There are the Harbor Freight dies on the extreme low end, the home center and Ace type which are lower level but better quality homeowner grade and stepping up significantly are the professional industrial level. Ten dollars or sixty dollars for a small one. On the low end the die holders are poorly made so accuracy is out the window right from the start.

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 15:42
ME!

oops, I am already retired.

I sold Snap-On Tools for 5 years, now that was fun. Inner city ghetto route with lot's of crazy smart immigrants that loved my tools.

I have Proto tools that were after the last ice age, great tools last!
Snap-On is a great manufacturer.

Jim Fitzgerald
11-Apr-2013, 15:47
Curt, I threaded a 1/4"SS rod for my 8x10 by hand with Mickey Mouse in mind. YOu've seen my hallway! got the rod in my vice and threaded away. One end and then the other. I did bevel the end a bit with my dremel to help it start. It was a very good bevel!

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 15:50
well, sponging...

i find it sad, we are no longer needed

The big loss is the vast knowledge source that will be lost. The twentieth century was an incredible time and I've learned just about everything from the people who worked in that time at the prime of their lives.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 15:58
It never ends with metal. While not ideal, what I like most about it, it you can add to it. You could thread, you could restore strength with a weld. You could grind the weld to pretty, erasing the stresses.

You can calculate how much stress your part will receive. Your cut threads may be entirely sufficient for the application. You don't know yet.

You could up size the shaft.

If it was a rocket ship, it would need over analysis. Lives would depend on it.

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 16:09
Curt, I threaded a 1/4"SS rod for my 8x10 by hand with Mickey Mouse in mind. YOu've seen my hallway! got the rod in my vice and threaded away. One end and then the other. I did bevel the end a bit with my dremel to help it start. It was a very good bevel!

Hi Jim!,

I'm just catching up here. Been too busy. I have a big Wilton vice and the rod turned once during threading leaving a score mark even though I used a rag around it to prevent that. I think my lube was inadequate and my technique not good enough. I have no problem with brass at all. Cut threads and cold rolled threads are like night and day. Another issue is the threaded nut or knob. All tapped threads are not created equal. Some are tight some are loose and some are perfect. I'm surprised I got the Seneca shaft just right in retrospect. This is an iPhone photo of the thread I cut day before yesterday. It's smooth to the touch when turned between the fingers and nuts fit right. I'm sure the alignment is satisfactory. When the die handle is spun it travels in a straight path and doesn't wobble. Does anyone think I'm obsessing here? Jim, why didn't you use threaded rod? Curt

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 16:15
It never ends with metal. While not ideal, what I like most about it, it you can add to it. You could thread, you could restore strength with a weld. You could grind the weld to pretty, erasing the stresses.

You can calculate how much stress your part will receive. Your cut threads may be entirely sufficient for the application. You don't know yet.

You could up size the shaft.


If it was a rocket ship, it would need over analysis. Lives would depend on it.


Yes Randy, it could lead to "analysis paralysis". I'm at point of decision now thanks to the suggestions here. Maxim's abound.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 16:28
I think you did a good job! Congratulations!


Hi Jim!,

I'm just catching up here. Been too busy. I have a big Wilton vice and the rod turned once during threading leaving a score mark even though I used a rag around it to prevent that. I think my lube was inadequate and my technique not good enough. I have no problem with brass at all. Cut threads and cold rolled threads are like night and day. Another issue is the threaded nut or knob. All tapped threads are not created equal. Some are tight some are loose and some are perfect. I'm surprised I got the Seneca shaft just right in retrospect. This is an iPhone photo of the thread I cut day before yesterday. It's smooth to the touch when turned between the fingers and nuts fit right. I'm sure the alignment is satisfactory. When the die handle is spun it travels in a straight path and doesn't wobble. Does anyone think I'm obsessing here? Jim, why didn't you use threaded rod? Curt

Drew Wiley
11-Apr-2013, 16:29
I too have Proto tools from the good ole days. Even forty year-old Phillips screwdrivers aren't worn out yet. Today you'd be lucky if a Proto made-in-China screwdriver lasted half an hour. Dies are an even more disgusting subject. Most of them won't
cut three threads, that is, unless your track down a reputable source. I had some bozo in here six months ago who was locally manufacturing metal lathes. He was complaining how over half his outsourced parts were out-of-spec and unusable; so he was going to travel to China with his own digital caliper to check on the quality control. But he didn't want to pay for anything more expensive than a made-in-China caliper. I didn't have much sympathy for his plight!

Erik Larsen
11-Apr-2013, 16:45
Hi Jim!,

I'm just catching up here. Been too busy. I have a big Wilton vice and the rod turned once during threading leaving a score mark even though I used a rag around it to prevent that. I think my lube was inadequate and my technique not good enough. I have no problem with brass at all. Cut threads and cold rolled threads are like night and day. Another issue is the threaded nut or knob. All tapped threads are not created equal. Some are tight some are loose and some are perfect. I'm surprised I got the Seneca shaft just right in retrospect. This is an iPhone photo of the thread I cut day before yesterday. It's smooth to the touch when turned between the fingers and nuts fit right. I'm sure the alignment is satisfactory. When the die handle is spun it travels in a straight path and doesn't wobble. Does anyone think I'm obsessing here? Jim, why didn't you use threaded rod? Curt

Yes Curt, your way over obsessing:) it looks great! Think about what the shaft does, it doesn't matter if the knob is not perfect or if it wobbles a bit because it is not moving fast and you won't hardly notice a wobble between your thumb and fore finger when in use. The part that should be wobble free is the gear that you add on, any wobble there and it might bind or skip teeth. I admire your efforts for perfection.
Regards
Erik

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 16:47
I used to have a lot of fun testing Made in China engine parts. Most came with a certificate of quality, with testing parameters printed out, in 3 languages. Hardness, dimensions, even design. All lies. For example, I was told to test Chevy small block lifters from China. I was also told to not do physical inspection, as the supplier had done that. My job was to Dyno test them. I looked at them as I installed them and felt with my bare hands they were simply not right. They lasted about 15 minutes. Even with cam lube and standard breakin. I was told, motor on, well they destroyed 3 engines before the head honcho gave up. They would disintegrate, filling the engine with metal sand, for lack of a better word.

Now, I got a story, about exploding Mexican engines, we blew up 12 of them, before they believed us....We drew circles on the block to show which con rod was going to fly out. Always a big mess...



I too have Proto tools from the good ole days. Even forty year-old Phillips screwdrivers aren't worn out yet. Today you'd be lucky if a Proto made-in-China screwdriver lasted half an hour. Dies are an even more disgusting subject. Most of them won't
cut three threads, that is, unless your track down a reputable source. I had some bozo in here six months ago who was locally manufacturing metal lathes. He was complaining how over half his outsourced parts were out-of-spec and unusable; so he was going to travel to China with his own digital caliper to check on the quality control. But he didn't want to pay for anything more expensive than a made-in-China caliper. I didn't have much sympathy for his plight!

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 17:46
I too have Proto tools from the good ole days. Even forty year-old Phillips screwdrivers aren't worn out yet. Today you'd be lucky if a Proto made-in-China screwdriver lasted half an hour. Dies are an even more disgusting subject. Most of them won't
cut three threads, that is, unless your track down a reputable source. I had some bozo in here six months ago who was locally manufacturing metal lathes. He was complaining how over half his outsourced parts were out-of-spec and unusable; so he was going to travel to China with his own digital caliper to check on the quality control. But he didn't want to pay for anything more expensive than a made-in-China caliper. I didn't have much sympathy for his plight!

What a poor soul. Mitutoyo comes to mind if accuracy is important. The reason I don't own a metal lathe is the ability to cut threads that I would expect from a jewelers lathe or a Logan, South Bend, Atlas, Clausen, etal. $$$

Taig and Sherline appear to be accurate. The import models of mini lathes that are nearly identical and sold under different names are interestingly questionable. How accurate were the parts made? I don't see an ISO 9000 standards on them.

Yep, those old Proto tools are great.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 18:08
I got 2 UNIMAT with some cameras. Have not used them much at all. Saw a video on CNC conversion, that looked very cool. Last time I threaded a shaft on a lathe was High School. I barely remember HS, I went to 4...



What a poor soul. Mitutoyo comes to mind if accuracy is important. The reason I don't own a metal lathe is the ability to cut threads that I would expect from a jewelers lathe or a Logan, South Bend, Atlas, Clausen, etal. $$$

Taig and Sherline appear to be accurate. The import models of mini lathes that are nearly identical and sold under different names are interestingly questionable. How accurate were the parts made? I don't see an ISO 9000 standards on them.

Yep, those old Proto tools are great.

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 19:03
Yes Curt, your way over obsessing:) it looks great! Think about what the shaft does, it doesn't matter if the knob is not perfect or if it wobbles a bit because it is not moving fast and you won't hardly notice a wobble between your thumb and fore finger when in use. The part that should be wobble free is the gear that you add on, any wobble there and it might bind or skip teeth. I admire your efforts for perfection.
Regards
Erik

Thank you Erik!
It's interesting how thinking out loud can reformulate and confirm ideas. I'm satisfied enough now to move to the next step. I admire precision, my first camera build was a Bender kit. Kinda like a Lincoln Logs kit. All that could be done was to sand, glue, and finish. It did work so no fault there. Having a Toyo G 4x5 in college spoiled me. A wood field camera is on the high end between the two. The project I decided to do amounts to making wood film holders and a wood camera that after evaluating is going to be Rosewood and Ebony. I have the wood here and most is cut, planed, joined, and sanded. I had to set up my bandsaw for resawing which was time consuming. I found a German resaw blade that's wonderful. I can go right to the stationary sander with the pieces and skip the planer. The Rosewood, see Cooke Hardwoods, works more like machining than woodworking. I decided brass, which I love to work with, would be too heavy for a large camera. Actually a small ULF camera, 11x14.

I tried to upload pictures but there was an error so I'll try later. Anyway, thanks much! I didn't intend for this to be a camera build thread but rather a metal working one. I thought it would be helpful to bring out the scope of the project.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 19:13
Curt, any tips on holder making would be greatly appreciated, very few of us can afford ULF holders.

Or just an idea of how to go about it, I have thoughts, I think, wait I am obsessing.

you know, spread the wealth! :)

Maybe I could afford ULF, but it would require selling all my cameras, and that is not happening. I want more not less...

And right now I need to go print that 2X3 of me on RC 5X7, just because.

Erik Larsen
11-Apr-2013, 19:27
Thank you Erik!
It's interesting how thinking out loud can reformulate and confirm ideas. I'm satisfied enough now to move to the next step. I admire precision, my first camera build was a Bender kit. Kinda like a Lincoln Logs kit. All that could be done was to sand, glue, and finish. It did work so no fault there. Having a Toyo G 4x5 in college spoiled me. A wood field camera is on the high end between the two. The project I decided to do amounts to making wood film holders and a wood camera that after evaluating is going to be Rosewood and Ebony. I have the wood here and most is cut, planed, joined, and sanded. I had to set up my bandsaw for resawing which was time consuming. I found a German resaw blade that's wonderful. I can go right to the stationary sander with the pieces and skip the planer. The Rosewood, see Cooke Hardwoods, works more like machining than woodworking. I decided brass, which I love to work with, would be too heavy for a large camera. Actually a small ULF camera, 11x14.

I tried to upload pictures but there was an error so I'll try later. Anyway, thanks much! I didn't intend for this to be a camera build thread but rather a metal working one. I thought it would be helpful to bring out the scope of the project.

It sounds like a great project Curt! Having made both cameras and film holders, I can tell you that the camera will be a piece of cake compared to the film holders you still have to make:)

Jim Fitzgerald
11-Apr-2013, 19:45
Hi Jim!,

I'm just catching up here. Been too busy. I have a big Wilton vice and the rod turned once during threading leaving a score mark even though I used a rag around it to prevent that. I think my lube was inadequate and my technique not good enough. I have no problem with brass at all. Cut threads and cold rolled threads are like night and day. Another issue is the threaded nut or knob. All tapped threads are not created equal. Some are tight some are loose and some are perfect. I'm surprised I got the Seneca shaft just right in retrospect. This is an iPhone photo of the thread I cut day before yesterday. It's smooth to the touch when turned between the fingers and nuts fit right. I'm sure the alignment is satisfactory. When the die handle is spun it travels in a straight path and doesn't wobble. Does anyone think I'm obsessing here? Jim, why didn't you use threaded rod? Curt

I wanted a special length and a smooth rod inside. It really did not make any difference in the end. I could have used a SS threaded rod and cut it to size. Don't worry about catching up. Build baby build!!!

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 19:47
I need to stay away from this thread. I cannot start building cameras, Next Winter...

I will try to lurk quietly

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 20:13
I wanted a special length and a smooth rod inside. It really did not make any difference in the end. I could have used a SS threaded rod and cut it to size. Don't worry about catching up. Build baby build!!!

You told me to take my time, now I'm anxiety ridden, it's all I think about. Time is relative as Einstein once said.

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 21:07
Curt, any tips on holder making would be greatly appreciated, very few of us can afford ULF holders.

Or just an idea of how to go about it, I have thoughts, I think, wait I am obsessing.

you know, spread the wealth! :)

Maybe I could afford ULF, but it would require selling all my cameras, and that is not happening. I want more not less...

And right now I need to go print that 2X3 of me on RC 5X7, just because.

There's nothing to it! Get an old wood holder, 4x5, 5x7, it doesn't have to be ancient or of any specific brand just not plastic. Remove the top rivets and carefully take it apart. There in you will have your eyes opened to the minds of the craftsman of long ago. Seriously, each cut, shape, size, position, and material is right there. It's not like there is a titanium alloy of unknown origin inside there. Maybe some half century dust, pixie dust as the kids say.

It took me nine months of bit piece samples and thought before I took the plunge. A year in all. In the end I had a notebook of; "Try this" and / or "this" and a holder. A human can be conceived and born in less time!

Lately I've gone through the sketches and drawings, some of which I had to study again to understand, and rewrite them out in the one hundred twenty something major steps required to complete one. Preparation , tooling, all in a specific order and to some precise dimensions. Calipers and micrometers on wood? Of course, parallax with a ruler isn't precise. It's good, and great for other woodworking projects. I had a custom four wing shaper cutter made for my Powermatic 27. Why the shaper? I can turn the cutter over and reverse the spindle direction on the shaper. The table is magnicificant and the set up is a dream. I don't use the power feeder on this project. Just for moldings. The holder I made is double sided, no cheating there. It takes a certain mindset to make these. I don't perform more than one operation a day. If I started to gun them out they would certainly have problems. That's not to say they have to take three or four months to make. When I start to run parts I'll do the number I need. If a person makes them one at a time the temptation to make an adjustment or two along the way would result in say ten individual film holders and not a set with the same specifications.

I don't know what gives with the file upload. This is the only one that would work of the holder. I had a message saying I didn't have access to my photos. I just wanted to put a picture to show the holder I was talking about. I have another species picked out, this was for the prototype model. There was a sheet of 11x14 xray film in it at the time. Regular film fits too. It can be turned facing down without the film dropping out. Back to threading; there are eight stainless steel screws in each holder!

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 21:27
Not my skill set, I made a small wood boat once, not even close.

I'll think about it.

Thanks for the info!

Curt
11-Apr-2013, 22:28
Randy, I upped my skill set on all of this. For me it is a matter of wanting something so I looked around and thought why not. Who was it who said "Don't wait for your ship to come in, row out to it". What I can't make I buy, what I can't find I have made. Pure tanacity and a willingness to focus on a task has gotten progress. There are others doing it and I'm always excited when I have success. The first camera I made from scratch was a 4x5 Wista like model in cherry and brass. All from the hobby shop down the street from the apartment where my wife and I were living. I was in college so I worked on a coffee table in the evening.

I bought tiny taps and dies from that shop too, 1 72. Why? That's what they had. That's practically too small. That size was for bolting brass parts together. I used 4 40 for the knobs. It worked fine but I swore I'd use larger and more practical sizes. Some standardization helps. For the back springs I used bankers clips. They're stainless steel spring and bent into a clip shape. I cut them apart with several cutoff disks in a Dremmel. Then I drilled holes in them for mounting. That was a chore. By hand drill it didn't work so I bought a small drill press. The bellows I made with fabric from the fabric store. It was layered with aluminun foil and another cloth. It's light tight. I used that Bender ground glass. Nearly all homemade. Making a tapered pleated bellows wasn't as hard as I thought. I think there was a Popular Photography or Modern Photography article on how to. If you want it bad enough you can make it happen.

Tin Can
11-Apr-2013, 22:42
Curt,

Thanks for the encouragement! I built that boat, because I had never worked with wood. It became a sculpture, and I learned to bend wood. I still have that boat hanging on the wall inside my house. I like boats.

I like cameras, perhaps too much, as useable sculpture. Just as this message came in, I was considering that I have all the big parts for a point and shoot 8X10, like the one just sold here, a few minutes ago. I may start with that.

I also restore things, used to be cars and motorcycles, cameras are a better inside sport.

Thanks, and we all can't wait to see your camera!

Drew Wiley
12-Apr-2013, 08:15
Curt & Randy - what was so weird is that this guy was mfg specialty lathes, but couldn't deliver orders because his component supply chain was so messed up. He seemed like the usual skinflint entrpreneur that wants to compete with Chinese products by making junk here, employing illegals sweatshop-style, etc. He ended up getting some twenty buck
Harbor Frt style caliper to take on his round trip flight to China. Then a month later, after he got back, they still hadn't ship
the damn tanged chucks he needed. So he finds a source in India who guarantees him two week delivery. Sure enough, all
the chucks arrive in two weeks, but only twenty of the 650 that arrive have threads which actually work! When he calls them,
they tell him they knew he needed them on schedule, so didn't have time to replace a dull die! ... Poetic justice.

Tin Can
12-Apr-2013, 08:40
While we blame non USA products for being shoddy, we are to blame, for our eagerness to purchase cheaper and more products. The working class, of which, I was a paid up member, wants it all. Why not? It is human nature.

I now enjoy a vast array of old cameras and equipment, I never previously could have purchased. The dwindling usage of film gives me better access, but not forever. One day film cameras and ancillary products will be only in collector hands and value will rise, according to supply and demand. I have seen it happen with cars and motorcycles. Buy what you want now, especially quality American made, collectables.

Fortunately view cameras can be hand made, so they will never die. Lenses are another story, few will grind new glass. Film, emulsions and chems are DIY possible now. However, only yesterday I saw a news story about removing ALL hazardous products from store shelves. Soap will be next...

I quit sculpture, for there is always, storage problems. Almost lost my handmade boat, it's right over my head now. I did sell, 2 cameras, but I bought 3.

Back to work.





Curt & Randy - what was so weird is that this guy was mfg specialty lathes, but couldn't deliver orders because his component supply chain was so messed up. He seemed like the usual skinflint entrpreneur that wants to compete with Chinese products by making junk here, employing illegals sweatshop-style, etc. He ended up getting some twenty buck
Harbor Frt style caliper to take on his round trip flight to China. Then a month later, after he got back, they still hadn't ship
the damn tanged chucks he needed. So he finds a source in India who guarantees him two week delivery. Sure enough, all
the chucks arrive in two weeks, but only twenty of the 650 that arrive have threads which actually work! When he calls them,
they tell him they knew he needed them on schedule, so didn't have time to replace a dull die! ... Poetic justice.

Drew Wiley
12-Apr-2013, 09:53
Oh I don't know .... I'm just the opposite and distribute top end equip & tools from Germany, Japan, and what little remains of decent American mfg ... and I've got business coming out my ears, more in fact than all the junk dealers combined in this
significant urban market. So if you give people a choice, they'll take it, at least if they're educated enough in the trade to
understand there is a quality option. But can't chat too much today ...

Bernice Loui
13-Apr-2013, 09:45
Some years ago, I got one of these Made In China digital calipers, 6". Yes, it was cheaply made, but initially it worked OK and was surprisingly accurate. The inch to metric instant change over was nice too. One day while making a part on the lathe, made a measurement of where the part needed to fit and measured the part on the lathe as it was being made.. All looked fine, measurements were within the required fit... until the part was test fitted, only to discover the caliper decided to shift it's reading by no less than 0.10 inch... too small.

End of that caliper for good. Went back to my old trusty Swiss made Etalon dial caliper (slides and moves FAR smoother than made in China and it feels precise in every way) which is now over 30 years old. Made another part with zero problems.

Moral of this story, measuring tools are not worth saving any $ on. The time wasted, materials wasted and frustration that results from this is simply not worth any possible savings.



Bernice



Curt & Randy - what was so weird is that this guy was mfg specialty lathes, but couldn't deliver orders because his component supply chain was so messed up. He seemed like the usual skinflint entrpreneur that wants to compete with Chinese products by making junk here, employing illegals sweatshop-style, etc. He ended up getting some twenty buck
Harbor Frt style caliper to take on his round trip flight to China. Then a month later, after he got back, they still hadn't ship
the damn tanged chucks he needed. So he finds a source in India who guarantees him two week delivery. Sure enough, all
the chucks arrive in two weeks, but only twenty of the 650 that arrive have threads which actually work! When he calls them,
they tell him they knew he needed them on schedule, so didn't have time to replace a dull die! ... Poetic justice.

Tin Can
13-Apr-2013, 10:02
My test lab, would get crazy and start throwing out all the old stuff, I would grab what I could, 50 year old Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, Central, all pulled out of dumpsters. Good stuff, all within reach as I write this.

One day, I worked nights, they threw out the giant WWII English lathe and Bridgeport milling machine, that I used very often. The idiots throwing the stuff out had a 'Kazan' moment, but failed to check with actual users. The replacements were shoddy Chinese junk, that immediately broke, and kept breaking. I miss that lathe to this day.

Then they closed the Dyno lab and moved it to Shanghai.

I was made redundant.



Some years ago, I got one of these Made In China digital calipers, 6". Yes, it was cheaply made, but initially it worked OK and was surprisingly accurate. The inch to metric instant change over was nice too. One day while making a part on the lathe, made a measurement of where the part needed to fit and measured the part on the lathe as it was being made.. All looked fine, measurements were within the required fit... until the part was test fitted, only to discover the caliper decided to shift it's reading by no less than 0.10 inch... too small.

End of that caliper for good. Went back to my old trusty Swiss made Etalon dial caliper (slides and moves FAR smoother than made in China and it feels precise in every way) which is now over 30 years old. Made another part with zero problems.

Moral of this story, measuring tools are not worth saving any $ on. The time wasted, materials wasted and frustration that results from this is simply not worth any possible savings.



Bernice

Curt
13-Apr-2013, 15:12
Some years ago, I got one of these Made In China digital calipers, 6". Yes, it was cheaply made, but initially it worked OK and was surprisingly accurate. The inch to metric instant change over was nice too. One day while making a part on the lathe, made a measurement of where the part needed to fit and measured the part on the lathe as it was being made.. All looked fine, measurements were within the required fit... until the part was test fitted, only to discover the caliper decided to shift it's reading by no less than 0.10 inch... too small.

End of that caliper for good. Went back to my old trusty Swiss made Etalon dial caliper (slides and moves FAR smoother than made in China and it feels precise in every way) which is now over 30 years old. Made another part with zero problems.

Moral of this story, measuring tools are not worth saving any $ on. The time wasted, materials wasted and frustration that results from this is simply not worth any possible savings.



Bernice

I agree, buying cheap tools often results in what I call 'The high cost of getting by'. There is a saying, "We often pay the most for that which we get for free". Quality comes at a price most of the time. That's not to say we should always pay the highest price or get the best item but knowing the difference and the consequences is important.

Curt
13-Apr-2013, 15:30
My test lab, would get crazy and start throwing out all the old stuff, I would grab what I could, 50 year old Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, Central, all pulled out of dumpsters. Good stuff, all within reach as I write this.

One day, I worked nights, they threw out the giant WWII English lathe and Bridgeport milling machine, that I used very often. The idiots throwing the stuff out had a 'Kazan' moment, but failed to check with actual users. The replacements were shoddy Chinese junk, that immediately broke, and kept breaking. I miss that lathe to this day.

Then they closed the Dyno lab and moved it to Shanghai.

I was made redundant.

That's a familiar situation Randy. I believe this is why we in this country are losing our ability to continue to invent and develop new products and ideas. We had a small foundry in our city, a wood mill, and a paper mill. The foundry made nearly all the sewer covers in the city for decades and decades. The wood mill went back a hundred years and produced lumber for the region, the paper mill made tissue, toilet paper, sacks etc.. Those skilled workers are gone, the technology has been taken out and trashed, the area is weaker for it. They call it progress but the loss produced a ghost town effect for years. No wonder the government was desperate to get a Naval base. When I'm out walking I look down and see "Made in India" on the new "manhole" covers.

Tin Can
13-Apr-2013, 15:35
Bean counters with short term goals.

CEO's with golden parachutes that make more money when they fail.

Government controlled by lobbyists.

And they are all idiots!

Color me angry.




That's a familiar situation Randy. I believe this is why we in this country are losing our ability to continue to invent and develop new products and ideas. We had a small foundry in our city, a wood mill, and a paper mill. The foundry made nearly all the sewer covers in the city for decades and decades. The wood mill went back a hundred years and produced lumber for the region, the paper mill made tissue, toilet paper, sacks etc.. Those skilled workers are gone, the technology has been taken out and trashed, the area is weaker for it. They call it progress but the loss produced a ghost town effect for years. No wonder the government was desperate to get a Naval base. When I'm out walking I look down and see "Made in India" on the new "manhole" covers.

Jody_S
13-Apr-2013, 15:50
When I'm out walking I look down and see "Made in India" on the new "manhole" covers.

I saw this video of an Indian foundry not too long ago: New York Manhole Covers, Forged Barefoot in India (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/nyregion/26manhole.html?_r=0)

Can't find it now, but there's a photo in that article. Of course they're getting the steel by scrapping big ships, again in India because they can do it without any environmental worries, or safety for workers. How much do you think they really save by buying manhole covers from India, when you include the cost of transport?



Edit: found it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbWVp3xEqI)

Tin Can
13-Apr-2013, 16:02
Well, there is a Steel Mill, very close to me in Chicago, that is moving to a new site, still inside the city limits. I have been watching them work for 30 years, you can watch while sitting in traffic. I have shot a few pics too. They produce speciality steel and actually got less grief from the encroaching yuppies than the chocolate factory that was forced to stop smelling good...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-01-20/business/ct-biz-0120-bf-finkl-campus-20130120_1_bruce-liimatainen-finkl-sons-specialty-steels




I saw this video of an Indian foundry not too long ago: New York Manhole Covers, Forged Barefoot in India (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/nyregion/26manhole.html?_r=0)

Can't find it now, but there's a photo in that article. Of course they're getting the steel by scrapping big ships, again in India because they can do it without any environmental worries, or safety for workers. How much do you think they really save by buying manhole covers from India, when you include the cost of transport?



Edit: found it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbWVp3xEqI)

Curt
13-Apr-2013, 17:02
I saw this video of an Indian foundry not too long ago: New York Manhole Covers, Forged Barefoot in India (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/nyregion/26manhole.html?_r=0)

Can't find it now, but there's a photo in that article. Of course they're getting the steel by scrapping big ships, again in India because they can do it without any environmental worries, or safety for workers. How much do you think they really save by buying manhole covers from India, when you include the cost of transport?

I watched the uTube video. I saved a link in uTube under slavery / crimes against humanity. Harsh? Like I said before I worked in a chemistry lab at a foundry after graduating college. When I watched the video it brought back memories of walking into the foundry where the steel was being made. The term hot as hell aptly applies. The Indian foundry shown has smaller pours but having that much molten metal would fry a foot or limb or any part of the body. A splash and an eye or two would be gone. Again I'm reminded that a great portion of the people on this planet live in poverty and work in life threatening situations.




Edit: found it. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtbWVp3xEqI)

Curt
13-Apr-2013, 17:13
Has anybody worked with Nickle Silver, which actually has no silver in it? While not inexpensive its alloy is reported to have good machinability yet is strong. It looks to me like a cross between a brass and stainless steel rod. I'm sure I'll use stainless steel after the results I had though. From what I read about Nickle Silver it can be soldered. That might be important to those who need to use brass gears that have no hubs. The Seneca is one such example, I used brass as the replacement and brazed the gears with silver solder.

Tin Can
13-Apr-2013, 17:46
I have not, but your bit on silver soldering is one people should think about. Bicycles used to be silver soldered and if it can hold a bike frame together, I am sure it will be great for cameras.



Has anybody worked with Nickle Silver, which actually has no silver in it? While not inexpensive its alloy is reported to have good machinability yet is strong. It looks to me like a cross between a brass and stainless steel rod. I'm sure I'll use stainless steel after the results I had though. From what I read about Nickle Silver it can be soldered. That might be important to those who need to use brass gears that have no hubs. The Seneca is one such example, I used brass as the replacement and brazed the gears with silver solder.

Colin Graham
13-Apr-2013, 19:11
I cheat and tap the ends of 3/16" SS tubing for a 6-32 stud to mount knobs on. I have to bore the pinion hubs out for the bigger shaft diameter, but it's easier than cutting outside threads on stainless.

Curt
13-Apr-2013, 22:53
I cheat and tap the ends of 3/16" SS tubing for a 6-32 stud to mount knobs on. I have to bore the pinion hubs out for the bigger shaft diameter, but it's easier than cutting outside threads on stainless.

Hello Colin,

With all my thought I would have never come up with such an elegant solution. It fits all the criteria, a seamless junction and a clean appearance. I was even looking at couplers at one point but that's like hitting a nail with a sledge hammer.

Thanks,
Curt

Colin Graham
14-Apr-2013, 05:56
You're welcome Curt, glad that was helpful. Another benefit to using tubing for the shaft is that, with a bottoming tap, you can continue the set screw thread from the pinion gear into the shaft so it really locks the gears in place with no backlash at all.

Scott Walker
14-Apr-2013, 09:21
Has anybody worked with Nickle Silver, which actually has no silver in it? While not inexpensive its alloy is reported to have good machinability yet is strong. It looks to me like a cross between a brass and stainless steel rod. I'm sure I'll use stainless steel after the results I had though. From what I read about Nickle Silver it can be soldered. That might be important to those who need to use brass gears that have no hubs. The Seneca is one such example, I used brass as the replacement and brazed the gears with silver solder.

I have used it a fair bit, it is easy to work with. Copper, Nickel, & Zinc mix. Machinable, reasonably strong (very strong for a non ferrous metal), polishes well and has a stainless steel or chrome look to it if highly polished. Easy to silver solder but when you solder it you have to make sure the parts are flush with no gaps or rough edges because a solder line will be present. Takes electroplating very well. Don't know what else to tell you, certainley not a replacement for steel.

Bernice Loui
14-Apr-2013, 09:24
Hollow shafts work fine. They also reduce weight and if more rigidity is required, increase the outside diameter as the strength goes up by the square. Or, double the diameter, strength increase goes up four times. Most of the stress on a round is located near the outside diameter leaving the inside diameter with rather low stress.

Hollow drive shafts are common in everything from industrial machinery to race cars..


Bernice


Hello Colin,

With all my thought I would have never come up with such an elegant solution. It fits all the criteria, a seamless junction and a clean appearance. I was even looking at couplers at one point but that's like hitting a nail with a sledge hammer.

Thanks,
Curt