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EOTS
9-Apr-2013, 09:47
Hello,

I have received my Heliar 30cm 4,5 in Compound V shutter today.
The lens is from around 1947 (if I looked up the serial number correctly) and has accumulated quite an amount of dust on the inside.

So if you would want to clean it up ...
a) could I somehow do that myself without skrewing up the presumably fine tuned adjustments
(like distances between the groups, distances to the shutter, etc, etc)

b) could somebody recommend a professional restoration shop in the EU?

Best regards,
Martin

929809298192982

Jim Galli
9-Apr-2013, 10:14
Martin, all of the distances you're concerned about are idiot proof. The screw threads land on machined surfaces, so you can't re-assemble it wrong. Take the back element off the shutter and both sides are readily accessible. Take the front out and you'll find it is 2 groups screwed together. Seperate the groups and you can clean all the surfaces. CAUTION! Coatings were soft in that era. Use extreme caution in cleaning. Alcohol and a cotton swab used gently is probably OK. Err on the side of caution, but don't worry about assembly clearances. If it's only dust, maybe compressed air is all you need and no surfaces even need to be touched.


Hello,

I have received my Heliar 30cm 4,5 in Compound V shutter today.
The lens is from around 1947 (if I looked up the serial number correctly) and has accumulated quite an amount of dust on the inside.

So if you would want to clean it up ...
a) could I somehow do that myself without skrewing up the presumably fine tuned adjustments
(like distances between the groups, distances to the shutter, etc, etc)

b) could somebody recommend a professional restoration shop in the EU?

Best regards,
Martin

929809298192982

E. von Hoegh
9-Apr-2013, 10:24
Martin, all of the distances you're concerned about are idiot proof. The screw threads land on machined surfaces, so you can't re-assemble it wrong. Take the back element off the shutter and both sides are readily accessible. Take the front out and you'll find it is 2 groups screwed together. Seperate the groups and you can clean all the surfaces. CAUTION! Coatings were soft in that era. Use extreme caution in cleaning. Alcohol and a cotton swab used gently is probably OK. Err on the side of caution, but don't worry about assembly clearances. If it's only dust, maybe compressed air is all you need and no surfaces even need to be touched.

Jim, I'm shocked. If there's one thing nothing is proof against, it's idiots.

Jim Galli
9-Apr-2013, 10:29
Jim, I'm shocked. If there's one thing nothing is proof against, it's idiots.

Well, if anyone reads this, and takes their Heliar apart, and can't figure out how to put it back together . . I'll buy it cheap. PM me.

EOTS
9-Apr-2013, 10:42
Jim, thanks a lot for your detailed response!

Good to hear that it's that simple!
I'll start with compressed air, perhaps that will suffice ...

Best regards,
Martin

EOTS
9-Apr-2013, 13:49
Damn it!

Took a look at the lens again (before opening it)
but the aperture does not open/close smooth ... and does not form a round circle,
but more looks like the packard shutter hole when not completely open ...

Is this somehow correctable or would you rather return it (bought via EBay)?

Best regards,
Martin

jumanji
9-Apr-2013, 14:02
In my experience (I've owned two), these Compound shutters usually have a round aperture and smooth iris. A picture of yours would helpful.
In case it really has problem, you could ask a partial refund to repair it at Flutot camera, or return it (if item not as described).

Steven Tribe
9-Apr-2013, 14:19
It is not easy to get replacement shutters for these big Compounds. I don't know about parts.
I would think that a return/refund is your best/safest bet - it would hard to work out a partial refund that would be acceptible for the seller. You must think about costs, delay, VAT, in connection with a US service. Wasn't there an OK serviceman in France?

Jim's comments about idiot work is spot on. But the position of the central lens in Cooke triplet design is important for a good focus. I can't remember how sensible the central mount is in the Heliar - certainly on the early T,T & H lenses it was a bit more dicey.

Jim Galli
9-Apr-2013, 14:33
It is not easy to get replacement shutters for these big Compounds. I don't know about parts.
I would think that a return/refund is your best/safest bet - it would hard to work out a partial refund that would be acceptible for the seller. You must think about costs, delay, VAT, in connection with a US service. Wasn't there an OK serviceman in France?

Price Price Price. We don't know what you paid. If it was 200 bucks I'd try to get a hundred back and then live with it. It's a grand old lens and the oblong doesn't hurt anything if you're careful. Heliar's were made to be shot wide open which will be round. If you paid premium price, maybe then it would be best returned. I looked on completed ebay but didn't find this one. I was curious.




Jim's comments about idiot work is spot on. But the position of the central lens in Cooke triplet design is important for a good focus. I can't remember how sensible the central mount is in the Heliar - certainly on the early T,T & H lenses it was a bit more dicey.

On Heliar's the front comes out with both the front doublet and the center element threaded together. No spacing issues.

jumanji
9-Apr-2013, 14:40
This lens looks familiar with me. I think it came from UK.

Steven Tribe
9-Apr-2013, 14:56
If it was 200 bucks I'd try to get a hundred back and then live with it.

Agreed - 50% of the value is about right. Trouble is that ebay sellers, myself included, in principle, will not issue a refund - but prefer a return/refund. If the seller is not a photography expert, he will assume he is being "taken for a ride" by someone who wants a discount.

IanG
9-Apr-2013, 14:58
Flutot's isn't really the best option from Europe, not sure who's best theis side of the Atlantic for Compounds but you might try contacting Newton Ellis in Liverpool, UK.

I'd be more worried that there a problem with the aperture blades and unless it was a real bargain I'd return it, a CLA/repair won't be cheap 70-100 euros maybe much more. Cleaning the lens is simple as Jim says, I use a commercial liquid glass ceaner and it's surprising how easy and quick it is to safely clean even the worts dirt and debris from the lens elements (unless there's fugal etching).

Sometimes there's ulterior motives behind sales, the seller know there's an intermittent fault.

Ian

EOTS
9-Apr-2013, 15:17
Price Price Price. We don't know what you paid. If it was 200 bucks I'd try to get a hundred back and then live with it. It's a grand old lens and the oblong doesn't hurt anything if you're careful. Heliar's were made to be shot wide open which will be round. If you paid premium price, maybe then it would be best returned. I looked on completed ebay but didn't find this one. I was curious.


Hi,

more premium pricing I guess, but it does not come up often in shutter and was advertised as mint and having had CLA ...
I paid around 800 EUR ... lost some in EUR-to-GBP-translation ...

Even wide open it isn't round (see pics), as the aperture blades are reaching in (first pic) ...
I've added another picture at f/11 (third pic)

Glass itself looks mostly dusty but otherwise fine on the inside ... not sure about the front element coating though (second pic) ...
Jim, do I have to be careful with the front element coating also?

929929299392994

Best regards and thanks for your support,
Martin

EOTS
9-Apr-2013, 15:34
This lens looks familiar with me. I think it came from UK.

Yeah, it was a UK sale!

Jim Galli
9-Apr-2013, 16:01
Return Return Return. That aperture is all hosed up. Wait for a better one. Mine??? Oh my.......

IanG
10-Apr-2013, 01:55
Return Return Return. That aperture is all hosed up. Wait for a better one. Mine??? Oh my.......

Have to agree with Jim, if it's the one I can see sold recently then it's not as described. Better to get a refund than pay out a lot to get it up to standard.

Ian

Steven Tribe
10-Apr-2013, 02:16
Return as soon as possible - item not as described!

IanG
10-Apr-2013, 03:06
If it is the same seller then many of his items are poorly described, he does have some low value bit's I'd like (not lenses/shutters). The two negative feedbacks are a Lens board sold as Linhof most likely a copy and a lens with Shneideritis, which he should have mentioned.

Ian

EOTS
10-Apr-2013, 03:41
Thank you all for your support!

Yeah, I've already contacted him this morning via "Ebay private message"
and proposed to send it back and get the refund plus the postal costs ...

Now it's just around lunchtime, 12:37 PM here in Austria,
currently I'm waiting until he responds.

He did seem like a reasonable guy, I hope he will take it back without a fight ...

Best regards,
Martin

Steven Tribe
10-Apr-2013, 03:52
If you posted the item number here it might help our judgement.

taulen
10-Apr-2013, 04:51
Looks like it is : 130880531934


Up for sale HELIAR 300 MM F 4.5 from VOIGHTLANDER. This is a very nice lens for still life portaiture and landscape.
Very clean sample with clean glass no scratches,marks,fungus separation,very nice.Shutter works at all speeds.
Comes with mounting flange

EOTS
10-Apr-2013, 05:06
Yes, 130880531934!

The mounting flange was also not included...
Or is the silver colored part on the back the mounting flange (in my posted images)?
Which would be strange, because it is threaded ...

Best,
Martin

Steven Tribe
10-Apr-2013, 05:28
Mostly a BIN seller. Any plenty of warning signals!
Uses almost word for word identical text for the other Heliars he has on sale.
Uses "nice" and "very nice" for his headline text condition description. Nice is a very non-commital adjective.
Doesn't fill out the "condition description" which is really good help for non-english reading bidders/buyers.
No separate mention of iris, speeds, internal dust, coating condition or even the significant brassing of the Heliar in question.
Posts just 1 or 2 photos for each item.
Lens surface is not really shown in any of his photographs.
Thinks Voigtländer is spelt Voightlander!
Of course he is going to get - and gets - a lot of returns

EOTS
10-Apr-2013, 05:48
Hmmmm ... seems so ... he posted additional images via email, but did not show off those issues ...
Hope Ebay will cooperate in such cases if he won't ... but unmentioned flaws should be a no-go anyways?!

EOTS
10-Apr-2013, 07:41
He claims that the damage occurred in transit ...
"I don't know what caused the damage - maybe it was done in transit.I need some pics of the box and damage to the iris.-It looks like the petal came off its engagement."
and says he needs "to contact EBay how to proceed".

".I've checked shutter,lens and iris before shipping - everything was fine."

Jim Galli
10-Apr-2013, 07:48
He claims that the damage occurred in transit ...
"I don't know what caused the damage - maybe it was done in transit.I need some pics of the box and damage to the iris.-It looks like the petal came off its engagement."
and says he needs "to contact EBay how to proceed".

".I've checked shutter,lens and iris before shipping - everything was fine."

Still his fault. He should have packed better. Takes quite a whack to dislodge aperture blades! Good luck.

Michael W
10-Apr-2013, 07:49
Don't let him stuff you about. Tell him you are returning it for a full refund, or else just start a "not as described" process with Paypal.

Steven Tribe
10-Apr-2013, 07:51
File a "Item is not as described" with E**y now.
Irises do not fall apart in transit, unless they have been pushed back into position before dispatch by the seller's index finger.

EOTS
10-Apr-2013, 09:55
I've created a PayPal case ...
hope he will come to his senses and accept the lens back in honour ...

EOTS
10-Apr-2013, 10:27
In the meantime, I cleaned the front element with a microfiber cloth,
the front element coating is at least OK!

Now that the glass is OK:
In case the seller wants to go that road:
is the aperture repairable (sustainably) and how much should it cost?

Will now ask here, but only to get an idea how much would be reasonable ...
http://www.kameralanger.de/KTL_2011/Willkommen.html

Best regards,
Martin

EOTS
12-Apr-2013, 15:32
He accepted to take the lens back, but does not want do cover the return postage:
"Sorry about that but I never got a return postage off sellers to whom I returned the item,so I will go same way."

Is that normal on Ebay?

As I myself would handle it, if I send out crap like that (damaged aperture), I would pay for the return shipment.
A German Camera Store which sent me a scratched lens did also pay back original costs plus return shipment costs.

Does anybody know what's the policy on this?

Best regards,
Martin

Steven Tribe
12-Apr-2013, 15:56
What he says is probably true.
I have always paid return postage for the few items I have deemed "not as described".
It may be possible to fight for postage through e**y but I have found that the various dispute procedures to be so lengthy and occasionally unpleasant - outbursts of vitriol from sellers, that it is not worth the bother.
Considering the bid level, I think this is minor expense.
Remember - recorded delivery to him. He refunds through the paypal system (there is a limited period he can do this which cancells all his paypal fees. Then the ebay bay transaction is cancelled so he gets the final value fees refunded.
Remember he is being punished as interested will note this has been listed before in a new listing and will be cautious.

EOTS
12-Apr-2013, 16:06
OK, thanks Steve!

Michael W
13-Apr-2013, 03:06
If I've been sold a dud item I insist the seller covers the return postage. It's bad enough they have wasted my time with incorrectly described merchandise without making me be out of pocket as well. When I sell stuff I offer to pay return postage if not as described, and I had to do that once when a buyer found a problem I had overlooked. This seller continues to demonstrate how shifty he is.