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Robert Kalman
30-Mar-2013, 13:20
This 8x10 negative has an amoeba-like defect that I can't figure out. Here are the processing particulars:


A total of 20 negatives were processed, 5 at a time.
Each batch of 5 was processed in fresh HC-110 developer.
The fixer was fresh
I noticed the defect after removing it from the fixer, so I believe that rules out the washing cycle

92310

In this negative, you can see the defect on the man's shoulder and below his waist. (The image has been made lighter purposely in order render the defect obvious.) Two other negatives show the same defect. One of them may have been in the same batch, but I know that the third negative was processed in a different batch. I didn't detect it on the other two negatives until I scanned them. The rest of the take's negatives are pristine.

Here are some closeups:

9231492315

If the defect wasn't introduced during processing, I'm wondering if the holders are suspect. I had bought several used holders, and the previous owner had placed double-sided tape inside the holder in order to prevent buckling, I suppose. I removed the tape and rubbed off the adhesive. Perhaps there is a residue I can't detect, and the film has had some kind of adverse chemical reaction.

While I've only been shooting 8x10 for about a year, I've been a 4x5 shooter since 1989. I've processed several thousand sheets of film in 20+ years and this has never happened to me before.

Do you have any idea as to what may have caused the defect?

Many thanks!
Bob Kalman

Kirk Gittings
30-Mar-2013, 13:27
static electricity?

Robert Kalman
30-Mar-2013, 14:51
Hmm, hadn't thought of that, Kirk. It certainly has more of an electrical look than a chemical one. The darkroom had a relative humidity of 33%, which is quite low. Now I'm wondering, if that's it, when it could have happened. As I said, I've been working with sheet film for a long time. Do you think it could have happened when the dark slide was pulled, either in the darkroom or on location?

Thanks.

Andrew O'Neill
30-Mar-2013, 15:13
That is from static electricity. I had the same thing on a few negatives when I was shooting in Saskatchewan one summer. It's extremely dry there. Next time when you are ready to take a photo, pull the dark slide out very slowly, then reinsert very slowly after you took the photo.

Robert Kalman
30-Mar-2013, 19:27
Thanks for the confirmation that it's static electricity. And thanks, Andrew, for the suggestion about pulling the slide slowly.

I also asked Carl Weese what he thought, and he thinks it might be mold.

So, it definitely wasn't my processing; it could either be static or mold.

Andrew O'Neill
30-Mar-2013, 22:24
Mold? Never thought of that, but it is possible. Sure looks like static patterns to me.

Daniel Stone
30-Mar-2013, 23:03
reminds me of a miniature version of Hiroshi Sugimoto's "Lightning Fields" series:

http://fraenkelgallery.com/exhibitions/lightning-fields

-Dan

Fred L
31-Mar-2013, 05:57
Do these artifacts show up in the same spot on all the negs ? Are you by any chance using a finger or two and pressing down on the film to help move the film out of or into the holder when unloading or loading ?

I'd be inclined to go with mold but it also looks like static.

Robert Kalman
31-Mar-2013, 06:06
reminds me of a miniature version of Hiroshi Sugimoto's "Lightning Fields" series:

http://fraenkelgallery.com/exhibitions/lightning-fields

-Dan

Thanks, Dan. Sugimoto's image sure does resemble what showed up on my negative. I now realize that the slide gets pulled and reinserted four separate times: loading, unloading, exposing and post exposing. I'm definitely going to adjust the speed I perform the pulls and push backs.

Thanks everyone!

Robert Kalman
31-Mar-2013, 06:14
Do these artifacts show up in the same spot on all the negs ? Are you by any chance using a finger or two and pressing down on the film to help move the film out of or into the holder when unloading or loading ?

I'd be inclined to go with mold but it also looks like static.

Sometimes the film sticks when I'm unloading 8x10 from the holder and I do have to use more finger action beyond a simple pull to remove it. While I don't press down, I do have to run my finger along the edge to help it separate from the holder. Might that cause a static moment? (The artifacts on the three negs are in different locations.)

How do others deal with 8x10 film that won't easily slide out of the holder?

Robert Langham
31-Mar-2013, 06:34
Boy, is THAT ever a good lesson to learn from the forum...

That said, my first thought was that it might be a sweaty fingerprint if you changed film in a changing bag. I've had those happen. Probably static electricity though...

92363 Alligator in a box. Just noticed that those rubber boots are the same ones I wore a couple weeks ago at Mont St Michele!

Fred L
2-Apr-2013, 05:30
How do others deal with 8x10 film that won't easily slide out of the holder?

If I have film that really doesn't want to budge, I'll bow the open end and pop it out of the rails.

E. von Hoegh
2-Apr-2013, 14:16
static electricity?

Yessir.

Robert Kalman
29-Apr-2013, 16:08
OK. Let's try this again. This same defect has happened in another negative. Entirely different shoot. As several people suggested, I adjusted the pull of the dark slide, (pulled more carefully and slowly) and the day was warmer than the first day when this has happened. If you examine both images closely, the defect (which looks like a night crawler) appears in about the same spot on the negative (near the crotch). I've inspected every film holder closely, and there is nothing on the holder. I'm doubtful about this being a static electricity artifact.

Someone out in forumland must know what the hell is causing this so that I can correct it.94274

Closeups942779427894279

DennisD
29-Apr-2013, 17:02
This looks to me like static electricity in every respect.

What is the source of your film. Is it new from the box?
Could the film have been handled at a previous time by someone else or shuffled that you might not recall ?
Are you handling the film while wearing cotton gloves, etc. Are you standing on a carpet while handling the film ?
It doesn't take much to expose the film as shown. You might never notice.
Try grounding your body while handling the film.

Robert Kalman
29-Apr-2013, 17:29
Film is new from the box. Always barehanded in handling film. No carpet in the darkroom.

How does one ground one's body in the darkroom?

Nathan Potter
29-Apr-2013, 18:01
Sorry guys, this doesn't look like static electricity that I've seen. I think in most cases static discharge is dendritic like along the surface of the film The discharge travels short distances along the plane of the film until the charge dissipates. This could be a different form of discharge, but I tend to think not.

Question: Is this imbedded in the emulsion or on the surface of the emulsion? Can it be wiped off?

If its surface disposed I'd guess it's some kind of organic contamination from chemistry or water which has floating globs in it. Check both chemistry and water and try filtering both.

This could be an adhesive backing to got picked up by the film since you describe the use of tape in the holders. Is it on the back or emulsion side of the film.

I've seen stuff like this that was traced to small globs of protoplasm from either decomposed mold or algae and could be analyzed as TOC Total Organic Carbon at a high levels. It is not uncommon in DeIonised water where the filter and ion exchange beds have not been properly maintained. Thus it could come from bottled water.

OTOH if the spots appear in the same place on different negatives one could suspect a light leak - perhaps from a pinhole or such.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

DennisD
29-Apr-2013, 19:13
How does one ground one's body in the darkroom?

Static discharge bracelet such as that used for handling semiconductors.
(Bracelet includes a wire and ground clip and would be attached to wrist or ankle, other end to water pipe or known ground.). Available from radio shack or electronics supply.

If, as Nate suggests, this is some sort of organic matter, using a different water source might resolve. In Brewster, NY, you might be on well water. Could anything have changed recently with your water supply ?

Kevin Crisp
29-Apr-2013, 19:23
I admit my only knowledge of static electricity spark damage is with 120 and 35 mm, but this sure doesn't look like static electricity damage to me.

Robert Kalman
30-Apr-2013, 04:06
Sorry guys, this doesn't look like static electricity that I've seen. I think in most cases static discharge is dendritic like along the surface of the film The discharge travels short distances along the plane of the film until the charge dissipates. This could be a different form of discharge, but I tend to think not.

Question: Is this imbedded in the emulsion or on the surface of the emulsion? Can it be wiped off?

If its surface disposed I'd guess it's some kind of organic contamination from chemistry or water which has floating globs in it. Check both chemistry and water and try filtering both.

This could be an adhesive backing to got picked up by the film since you describe the use of tape in the holders. Is it on the back or emulsion side of the film.

I've seen stuff like this that was traced to small globs of protoplasm from either decomposed mold or algae and could be analyzed as TOC Total Organic Carbon at a high levels. It is not uncommon in DeIonised water where the filter and ion exchange beds have not been properly maintained. Thus it could come from bottled water.

OTOH if the spots appear in the same place on different negatives one could suspect a light leak - perhaps from a pinhole or such.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Cleaned the spot with film cleaner; doesn't come off. It's not on the surface, it's embedded. Hard to say definitively whether it's on the back or on the emulsion. Looks like it's in the emulsion, though.

Don't think its my water or chemistry because in a run of 40 negatives it's only on 3 negatives.

I'm going to check all the dark slides for pinholes.

Sal Santamaura
30-Apr-2013, 09:04
I'm unable to discern a notch code from your images in posts #1 and #15. What type film is this?

Robert Kalman
30-Apr-2013, 14:40
I'm unable to discern a notch code from your images in posts #1 and #15. What type film is this?
It's 8x10 Tri-X.

I checked the dark slides. No pinholes.

Sal Santamaura
30-Apr-2013, 17:15
It's 8x10 Tri-X...That probably eliminates the possibility it's a manufacturing defect. :)