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C_Remington
28-Mar-2013, 14:04
Just finished a session and, not crazy about the Sepia Toning effect I'm getting. It's too strong. What methods do y'all use to "tone" it down a few notches. <100% bleach, diluted toning sauce?

Paper is Ilford Art.

I tried a couple of different commercial Sepia Toners: Berg and Kodak. I believe they're both basically Sodium Sulfide toners.

Thanx in advance.

Chad

IanG
28-Mar-2013, 14:13
A direct toner would be better (that's no bleach), there's a Polysulphide toner in the Kodak Reference books that should be better. It's in the US versions but not the UK ones.

Warm tone papers react more strongly and go very much further in indirect toners.

Ian

bob carnie
28-Mar-2013, 14:13
Dilute the part A of the Kodak and back off on the time of bleaching until you get the final look you desire.
the Kodak part A is very potent and you are probably bleaching too much therefore getting too brown. Specifically with Art 300 which is very warm to begin with and moves very fast.

Mark Woods
28-Mar-2013, 14:24
I dilute the bleach to about 36:1 and still only leave the Art Paper print in for about 2:00. BTW, the Polysulphide toners not only smell, but they can fog any emulsions they come in contact.

patrickjames
28-Mar-2013, 15:01
Mix the toner with developer and it won't be so harsh.

If you dilute the bleach and don't bleach as long the highlights will be toned but the shadows won't. Mixing developer with the sulphide will give you a more even tone with a fully bleached print instead of a split tone with a partially bleached print. It is all personal choice of course. The tone tends to be more subtle with the developer/sulphide mix since you are toning only part of the silver.

You could also try a pre sulphide bath to see if you like the effect. In other words, put the print in the sulphide for a soak then wash it before it goes into the bleach then back into the sulphide.

Good luck.

C_Remington
28-Mar-2013, 15:24
Seriously??? Never heard of that.

What proportions?


Mix the toner with developer and it won't be so harsh.

If you dilute the bleach and don't bleach as long the highlights will be toned but the shadows won't. Mixing developer with the sulphide will give you a more even tone with a fully bleached print instead of a split tone with a partially bleached print. It is all personal choice of course. The tone tends to be more subtle with the developer/sulphide mix since you are toning only part of the silver.

You could also try a pre sulphide bath to see if you like the effect. In other words, put the print in the sulphide for a soak then wash it before it goes into the bleach then back into the sulphide.

Good luck.

patrickjames
28-Mar-2013, 16:50
Seriously??? Never heard of that.

The one thing about the internet is people assume that if it isn't on the internet it doesn't exist. There is a lot of knowledge out there that doesn't get shared for whatever reason, usually because of the a$$hats that like to argue about everything and know nothing. The net effect of their behavior is that knowledge is stifled. The people out there that already have the knowledge have no motivation to share it when the aforementioned population decide to act like themselves which seems to be all the time these days. I'll give it a 50/50 shot that someone will come along and argue about mixing the sulphide and developer.


What proportions?

There is no answer to that since everyone is looking for a different thing and your dilutions and developers will be different than mine. Try 50/50 to start. I haven't used that paper so I can't really give you any advice about toning it.

cowanw
28-Mar-2013, 17:27
I'll give it a 50/50 shot that someone will come along and argue about mixing the sulphide and developer.

Statistically you will be right either way, but I am going to give it a shot at my next session.

Peter De Smidt
28-Mar-2013, 21:15
How about a thiorea toner? Check out Tim Rudman's book on toning. It is outstanding, as are his other books.

paulr
28-Mar-2013, 21:46
I thought I'd heard it all, but sepia+developer is a new one. Makes sense that it could work. I imagine it takes some practice getting the ratios right for any given paper.

My favorite warm toner is Nelson Gold, but I only have experience using it on warm chlorobromide papers. If it goes too warm, a brief pre-toning in dilute selenium can pull it toward neutral.

The DuPont thiorea toners are interesting. They turned Fortezo orange, so I only tried them once. Beware that thiorea is powerful fogging agent and a suspected carcinogen.

Polysulfide doesn't let you vary the strength or color very easily. I remember it turning Ilford papers a deep purple-brown. Not so useful.

I've heard reverential things about mercuric chloride toners, but you probably don't want that stuff anywhere near your house.

andreios
29-Mar-2013, 00:14
Some interesting ideas... I use Moersch toners, to get only slight sepia tone in the highlights I dilute the bleach and use it only for something like 30 seconds. With this method however it is absolutely necessary to have a fresh toner and move the print in the bleach consistently all the time to prevent irregular bleaching.

Anyway, I'd "second" the suggestion to read Tim Rudman's toning book - it is a gem - one of the best darkroom books I have!

bob carnie
29-Mar-2013, 05:55
I have never heard of this technique , internet or no internet. Could you post your workflow with some examples?

The one thing about the internet is people assume that if it isn't on the internet it doesn't exist. There is a lot of knowledge out there that doesn't get shared for whatever reason, usually because of the a$$hats that like to argue about everything and know nothing. The net effect of their behavior is that knowledge is stifled. The people out there that already have the knowledge have no motivation to share it when the aforementioned population decide to act like themselves which seems to be all the time these days. I'll give it a 50/50 shot that someone will come along and argue about mixing the sulphide and developer.



There is no answer to that since everyone is looking for a different thing and your dilutions and developers will be different than mine. Try 50/50 to start. I haven't used that paper so I can't really give you any advice about toning it.

C_Remington
29-Mar-2013, 06:21
To all you chemistry PHd's, how does the toner/developer process work?

GSX4
29-Mar-2013, 06:34
Bob.... I use the Kodak Sepia II kits(i stocked up before they were discontinued)'and dilute the bleach to stock as per instructions. I then pour off about 100ml of stock, and add 600ml of water diluting it 1:6 . This seems to work quite well for most chlorobromide papers and yields on average a 30 second bleach time to cut the highlights back and just add a hint of a warm tone. During the initial few seconds into bleaching, i do see the paper take on a blue/grey hue ever so slightly. It's not too easy to see, but its there. After 30 or so seconds, when I see the high values are where they need to be, into the wash it goes for about 10 to 15 minutes. Then the print goes into the sulphide bath for 2 minutes, and back into the wash. After another 10 or 15 minutes in the wash, I run them through a selenium bath, just to get a bit more oomph in the blacks. I find that the print gets warmer too, but can quickly turn to plum color if you don't keep your eye on it. I only tone for the blacks, and not the color.... Then it's back into the wash for 90 minutes.... I do find that if the warmth is not there during the first bleach back and sulphide tone, it can take another pass through the chems... Even after the initial selenium tone. YMMV

bob carnie
29-Mar-2013, 06:41
Hey Andrew

thanks pretty much what I do, but if you look at Patricks post I think he is suggesting mixing the sulfide with paper developer first. Its new to me and I would like to hear how it works.

Bob.... I use the Kodak Sepia II kits(i stocked up before they were discontinued)'and dilute the bleach to stock as per instructions. I then pour off about 100ml of stock, and add 600ml of water diluting it 1:6 . This seems to work quite well for most chlorobromide papers and yields on average a 30 second bleach time to cut the highlights back and just add a hint of a warm tone. During the initial few seconds into bleaching, i do see the paper take on a blue/grey hue ever so slightly. It's not too easy to see, but its there. After 30 or so seconds, when I see the high values are where they need to be, into the wash it goes for about 10 to 15 minutes. Then the print goes into the sulphide bath for 2 minutes, and back into the wash. After another 10 or 15 minutes in the wash, I run them through a selenium bath, just to get a bit more oomph in the blacks. I find that the print gets warmer too, but can quickly turn to plum color if you don't keep your eye on it. I only tone for the blacks, and not the color.... Then it's back into the wash for 90 minutes.... I do find that if the warmth is not there during the first bleach back and sulphide tone, it can take another pass through the chems... Even after the initial selenium tone. YMMV

patrickjames
29-Mar-2013, 13:59
Bob, I don't use it too often and I don't keep track. The net effect of mixing the sulphide and the developer is the print will be toned overall, but with less effect. As I mentioned above, if the print is only partially bleached the tone will be split of course, and the bleached part will get a full toning. If the print is bleached back, then toned with the sulphide/developer, the toning affects the whole print, just not as much as straight sulphide. That is why I suggested it to the OP.

I have some toning to do later. I'll see if I can't tear up a few "waste" prints and make up the toner. I am going off of memory though, so... I really need to start writing things down now that I am getting into my 40's. I came up with a great Ammonia toner a year or so ago but I will be damned if I can remember what was in it! At least I remembered the Ammonia...

I also mentioned pre-sulphiding as a way to knock down the color and that can be easily done.

Double toning (twice through the process) is a great way to give a little oomph to the color on Ilford MGIV, a paper which doesn't tone very dramatically unlike some others. I just did this recently and have those handy-
Once through (partial toning)-

http://www.patrickjames.net/LFF/2013-016-45ps-rename301.jpg

Twice through, about the same amount of bleach back limiting the effect to the highlights-

http://www.patrickjames.net/LFF/2013-016-45ps-rename212DoubleSepiaToned.jpg

I probably selenium toned these afterwards. Usually do.

Greg Davis
29-Mar-2013, 14:13
That is very similar to reverse sepia toning in which the print is put through the toner first, then bleached, then retoned. I find the color on Ilford MG IV to be more of a cool chocolate brown when reverse sepia toned compared to the standard method. I need to try it on the Ilford Warmtone to see what it does.

bob carnie
30-Mar-2013, 05:19
Patrick and Greg

Both methods I have never tried, who says old dogs cannot learn new tricks.

I will give both a try for myself, thanks

patrickjames
30-Mar-2013, 14:01
Greg, that is my experience as well with reverse sepia toning/pre-sulphiding. It tends to cool the color down and limits the reaction of the bleach somewhat.

I didn't get into the darkroom last night, but thinking about this since my last post retrieved a few tidbits from the lost areas of my mind. (It is a mess in there). The sulphide/developer combination has to be matched so that redevelopment takes place in the time period that the toning is taking place. In an earlier post I speculated 50/50, but that will be wrong. One will need a strong developer and a weak toner. Toning is almost instant with full strength toner. Maybe a tidbit or two more of information will surface in time.

It also occurred to me that one could use a very dilute developer to slowly bring back the image, then finish it with sulphide. I have never tried this though, although it might give more flexibility to the process than a sulphide/developer mix. I might actually give this a try...

I know there is a collective head scratching going on out there about this method, but FWIW, I didn't come up with this myself. It was passed to me from Gene Nocon. I got a few little nuggets from him.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2013, 06:05
Ok I may be thick here but just to be sure.

Patrick you are suggesting adding sodium suphide to a working developer? I think you are suggesting this.

I am not talking about bleaching a developed out print then redeveloping with sulphide added to the developer.

Its been a long winter in Canada and getting brain freeze is very possible.

patrickjames
31-Mar-2013, 12:15
Ok I may be thick here but just to be sure.

Patrick you are suggesting adding sodium suphide to a working developer? I think you are suggesting this.

I am not talking about bleaching a developed out print then redeveloping with sulphide added to the developer.

Its been a long winter in Canada and getting brain freeze is very possible.

Bob, I don't think I was suggesting that, although...

In the process of thinking about all of this, the thought did occur to me, but I would speculate that sulphide would tone the entire paper, even the parts that received no exposure. I am planning to test it just to see what would happen to satisfy my curiosity. Next time I tone I will throw an undeveloped piece of paper straight into the sulphide.

bob carnie
31-Mar-2013, 12:44
Hi Patrick

Thats what I read into your first post

Bob

Bob, I don't think I was suggesting that, although...

In the process of thinking about all of this, the thought did occur to me, but I would speculate that sulphide would tone the entire paper, even the parts that received no exposure. I am planning to test it just to see what would happen to satisfy my curiosity. Next time I tone I will throw an undeveloped piece of paper straight into the sulphide.