Enlarger lenses question

[gliderbee]

I'm offered two enlarger lenses for a Durst Laborator 138:

- 1 x Schneider-Kreutznach. G-Claron 9/210. f9-f64, nr. 13 222 454
- 1x Schneider-Kreutznach. G-Claron 9/240. f9-f64, nr. 13 158 369

Are these any good ? At this moment, I'm using old Durst Componon lenses. Are these G-Clarons better ? What would be a reasonable price to pay ?

Thanks for any advice.

Stefan.

[AJ Edmondson]

What format are you enlarging? These are somewhat slow for enlarging (depending upon your light source) and prices can vary significantly. You also don't mention what focal length Componon(s) you have so it is difficult to make suggestions.
Joel

[gliderbee]

Hello Joel,

Max format that I use to enlarge is 5x7 (a 8x10 enlarger is in my distant dreams ..:p). I'm not at home, and it's a long time since I looked closely at the lenses I have (I use my Laborator 1200 for 4x5 a bit more than the 138). I'll have a look this evening.

Thanks,
STefan.

[Bob Salomon]

These are actually process lenses that are usually optimized for f22. An enlarging lens is usually (for modern ones) f5.6 and they are optimized for 2 stops down, F11. That larger aperture will result in markedly shorter exposure times, less chance for reciprocity effects and far less chance of vibration. In addition, you are looking for 57 or 810 lenses right? These would be no good at all for smaller formats.

[gliderbee]

What format are you enlarging? These are somewhat slow for enlarging (depending upon your light source) and prices can vary significantly. You also don't mention what focal length Componon(s) you have so it is difficult to make suggestions.
Joel

Ok, I checked; the lenses I have now (always used without really looking what I was using :)):

- Schneider-Kreuznach Durst Componon 5,6 210mm
- same, but 5,6 150mm.

They are quite old, have Schneideritis, and the glass isn't really shiny clean; they are usable, but I'm on the lookout for something better. Are these G-Clarons what I would be looking for ?

Thanks,
Stefan.

[JohnJ]

Ok, I checked; the lenses I have now (always used without really looking what I was using :)):

- Schneider-Kreuznach Durst Componon 5,6 210mm
- same, but 5,6 150mm.

They are quite old, have Schneideritis, and the glass isn't really shiny clean; they are usable, but I'm on the lookout for something better. Are these G-Clarons what I would be looking for ?

Thanks,
Stefan.

I think Bob Salomon has already answered your question. G-Clarons are not enlarging lenses.

Aside from possibly cleaning your existing lenses, as they generally open up easily enough to their front and rear cells, you might simply replace your existing lenses with later Componon-s lenses which are also in better condition.

[Drew Wiley]

G-Clarons actually work better for enlarging than many older "authentic" enlarging lenses, and certainly do not need to be
used at f/22. The 240 should easily cover 5x7 and be quite sharp just one stop down. The 210 will probably also be fine.
But that's still a stop slower than most enlarging lenses. The other issue is that the G-Claron label was affixed to lenses over
quite a time span, and some of the older ones had a different design which I am not personally familiar with. Some process
lenses are absolutely superb for use on an enlarger - better corrected in fact than any dedicated enlarging lens I can think
of - IF you can work with somewhat smaller apertures. I'd far rather use a clean late G-Claron than an old style Componon.
But there are so many modern enlarging lenses out there, that you might want to weigh all the options. Sometimes you need
the speed and brighter focus-viewing. I've mounted G-Clarons on my Durst and compared the results with various enlarging
and process lenses - but these were relatively modern "taking" lenses in shutter.

[AJ Edmondson]

Stefan... Bob Salomon can be pretty well counted on for sage advice. I have used the earlier Schneider Repro-Clarons for enlarging but they are not great. There are plenty of "newish" Schneider and Rodagon lenses out there at decent prices and you will really be much better off with the appropriate enlarging lens unless you are just wanting to "play-around" with different lenses.
Joel

[gliderbee]

These are actually process lenses that are usually optimized for f22. An enlarging lens is usually (for modern ones) f5.6 and they are optimized for 2 stops down, F11. That larger aperture will result in markedly shorter exposure times, less chance for reciprocity effects and far less chance of vibration. In addition, you are looking for 57 or 810 lenses right? These would be no good at all for smaller formats.

Hello Bob,

Your arguments sound valid even for new lenses, while some say newer ones are ok for enlarging.

I was sent a picture of the lenses; I guess this are new ones ? If they come VERY cheap (I was asked to make an offer), I might be tempted, just to experiment a bit until I've found a decent enlarging lens.

92288

Thanks,
Stefan.

[Dan Fromm]

Drew, there've been a number of discussions about when Schneider stopped making dagor type G-Clarons and started making plasmat types. I got curious, asked Schneider, and was told that G-Clarons with serial number less than 11,000,000 are dagor types and later ones are plasmats. The OP has finally shown us the lenses, they're both later than 11,000,000.

Stefan, you've been offered good taking lenses whose cells are direct fits in a Compur/Copal #1.

[Bob Salomon]

Hello Bob,

Your arguments sound valid even for new lenses, while some say newer ones are ok for enlarging.

I was sent a picture of the lenses; I guess this are new ones ? If they come VERY cheap (I was asked to make an offer), I might be tempted, just to experiment a bit until I've found a decent enlarging lens.

92288

Thanks,
Stefan.

An enlarging lens was specifically designed to take a small original and blow it up to within a specific size range, 4x, 10x, 30x, etc. depending upon the design of the lens formula. For instance; a Rodagon G is designed for much greater enlargements (mural size) then a Rodagon. But while a Rodagon G will be vastly superior to any other Rodagon (including the Apo Rodagon-N) at mural sizes it is incapable of making a quality small print like an 8x10. At smaller sizes the Rodagon, Rodagon-WA and the Apo Rodagon-N will be far better then the other formulas.

A process lens is specifically designed to copy an original larger size image of flat art to the same size or larger piece of film. Not the same thing as what an enlarging lens does.

There are also specialized duplicating lenses, an Apo Rodagon-D is an example. These are optimized to duplicate, depending on the specific lens, a slide or negative to a piece of film the same size from some of the D lenses and to 2x the original size on other versions.

Most enlarging lenses (not all - especially longer focal lengths above 135 or 150mm) have special convenience features today for work in the dark (process lenses and duplicating lenses are not normally used in a dark room. So many modern enlarging lenses have pre-set aperture control, illuminated aperture rings and dis-engageable click stops to make it very easy for the darkroom worker to switch from wide open for focusing to printing aperture without looking at the aperture ring. So they can keep there concentration on the image on the easel. Illuminated rings let you see what aperture is selected without turning on lights or trying to count clicks on the ring, and dis-engaging the click stops makes it much more convenient to set the best aperture while using electronic aids like color analysers.

None of these features are usually found on any process lens but the pre-set mechanism is on duplicating lenses like the Apo Rodagon-D. BTW, the D is incapable of making a reasonable enlargement.

To fully receive the optimal quality from any enlarger it is critical that the enlarger be in proper enlargement (and checked and adjusted for it periodically and before any really important prints) and the the film be in a glass carrier to ensure that it is flat and to keep it flat so it can not "pop" during the exposure.

Since all process lenses shorter then 600mm are optimized to only perform optimally at f22 (32 for longer then 600mm) the flatness issue becomes even more important since the exposure time at f22 (optimal for a process lens) will require 2 to 3 stops longer exposure then an enlarging lens would at f8 to 11 so the film will have much more opportunity to "pop" due to the build-up of heat during the exposure, even with a cold light source enlarger.

While no body makes new enlarging lenses for 5x7 or 8x10 today there are many used current types currently available as professional labs switch to digital or discontinue the printing of larger film sizes.

Do it right and look for a quality enlarging lens. You will be much happier with the results and you will find them much easier to focus and operate.

[gliderbee]

Do it right and look for a quality enlarging lens. You will be much happier with the results and you will find them much easier to focus and operate.

Ok, I will ! thanks for your advice. I'll do a very low offer on those Clarons to try them in a Copal 1 shutter, just for fun.

Thanks all for your help,
Stefan.