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John Kasaian
27-Mar-2013, 21:51
I've got four total, but the ones that see the most use are an uncoated 14" APO Artar (on 5x7) and a 19" Red Dot Artar (on 8x10) In fact I find the 19" Red Dot Artar extremely useful for landscapes. Even the uncoated APO Artar is so sharp, the gg sometimes seems to sparkle when composing.
I can see why they've become cult legends (but don't believe the hype--yes anyone can take lousy photographs with a Goerz, been there---done that many times!)
Which Goerz lens(es) do you use and enjoy?

Alan Gales
27-Mar-2013, 22:56
No Goerz lenses here but the 19" Red Dot Artar has been at the top of my "want" list for a while. My daughter is in college and keeping me broke for now. ;)

IanG
28-Mar-2013, 01:34
Just a plain old 12" Goerz Am Opt Dagor. The lens ws bought around 1940 in New York with an Agfa Ansco Commercial View buy a student & later lecturer at the Clarence White School of Photography. The second owner a Photofraphy Prefoeffsor said it had separation and was no good as it was old, he'd never tried it.

So not expecting much I found a gem - a coated Dagor that just needed a good clean, the original owner (who I managed to contact) had it factory coated after WWII, It's a great lens to usse and the results are superb.

Ian

Steven Tribe
28-Mar-2013, 02:41
Lynkeioskop series C, E & F.
Not used the series III much yet.

goamules
28-Mar-2013, 07:14
I like the Dagor. I have a 14", 8.5" Gold Rim, and several small early 1900s ones in Volutes. Even the early uncoated ones are very contrasty, comparatively.

karl french
28-Mar-2013, 07:58
I've got 4 as well. The 12" Gold Dot Dagor by far the most used. I love it. I've only shot a couple sheets with 6.5" WA Dagor, but it's nice to have around. I do like my 8.25 inch Dagor, but after using a 210 Angulon for a while the 8.25 is getting ignored. And I finally picked up a 30" Red Dot Artar which is now on it's way to SK Grimes for mounting into a shutter. Looking forward to giving that a try.

Vaughn
28-Mar-2013, 07:58
The 19" RD and occasionally the 24" RD. For 8x10 and 11x14.

karl french
28-Mar-2013, 08:03
I should say it was really an old 1902 Goerz Doppel Anastigmat attached to my Kodak Panoram No.1 that got me into Dagors. It always amazed me with it's tonal signature.

Ken Lee
28-Mar-2013, 08:13
I just got a 10 3/4 in Red Dot Artar after Bernice Loui kindly lent me hers to try. Very nice.

Tracy Storer
28-Mar-2013, 08:46
After hearing about Dagors from former teachers and friends, I decided to try a 9.5" on my 5"x7" and loved it. It compared very well with a modern Plasmat with slightly less contrast, but more coverage, and is much more compact. I was, and am, hooked. I now have several in various FLs. They are all of the same basic build as the old, Series IIIs, and as another poster pointed out, even uncoated examples give good contrast owing to the low number of air/glass interfaces(6-2 construction, meaning 6 elements in 2 groups, resulting in a total of 4 air/glass interfaces)
The (Red Dot) Artar design spawned most of the really good process lenses(Apo-Ronars, Apo-Nikkors, etc.). At the moment I only have a late (Schneider) RDA in 16.5" I am planning on using on 8"x10"

Bernice Loui
28-Mar-2013, 09:25
It is not the "sharpness" of an Artar that makes them special, it is their lower contrast with better tonality, out of focus rendition and color rendition that makes them special. The primary limitation of an Artar is image circle/coverage. Back in the graphic arts/process work days, the Artar was prized low distortion and ability to produce color separation film of the same size key to color printing at that time.

The circle of illumination is larger than it's circle of specified performance that can deceive some into using them on a film format larger than it's ratings.

I do like the Artar very much for longer than normal focal length lens... and have them from 4" to 35" most are in Barrel, some in shutter. The barrel and older shutters have a round iris which aids in out of focus rendition and Bokeh.

The other is Dagor which has really good image circle/coverage for their size -vs- focal length. What makes the Dagor special is not just sharpness, it is tonality and a certain look to the images they produce. I still own a 12" Dagor and 8 1/2" Dagor specifically for this reason.

IMO, the modern lens designer did what they believed to be an improvement to the Dagor by making it an air spaced plasmat which allowed the largest aperture to be f5.6 -vs- f6.8 of f7.7 on a Dagor with similar image circle/coverage -vs- focal length. In their view this was an improvement over the Dagor. The trade off was size and harsh out of focus rendition and for many, what I perceive as excessively high contrast with less than appealing tonality. This is the hard, high contrast, sharp modern look that appears to have become generic to many modern plasmats.

As with most all vintage lenses, better to test before committing to purchase/own as there will be differences from great to awful.

Lens types are IMO a personal choice and does leave a signature on the images made.


Bernice



I've got four total, but the ones that see the most use are an uncoated 14" APO Artar (on 5x7) and a 19" Red Dot Artar (on 8x10) In fact I find the 19" Red Dot Artar extremely useful for landscapes. Even the uncoated APO Artar is so sharp, the gg sometimes seems to sparkle when composing.
I can see why they've become cult legends (but don't believe the hype--yes anyone can take lousy photographs with a Goerz, been there---done that many times!)
Which Goerz lens(es) do you use and enjoy?

Dan Fromm
28-Mar-2013, 09:26
I dunno. I like my dialyte type Apo-Nikkors and my Boyer Beryls. What's magic about the name Goerz?

John Kasaian
28-Mar-2013, 09:30
I dunno. I like my dialyte type Apo-Nikkors and my Boyer Beryls. What's magic about the name Goerz?
I didn't mean to imply any magic, only that some people have a preference for some Goerz models.

Bernice Loui
28-Mar-2013, 09:31
Add, Rodenstock APO Ronar and a host of other of similar configuration.

What made Goerz famous was the Dagor. The Artar appeared later which became the norm for process/graphic arts work.


Bernice


I dunno. I like my dialyte type Apo-Nikkors and my Boyer Beryls. What's magic about the name Goerz?

E. von Hoegh
28-Mar-2013, 09:42
The other is Dagor which has really good image circle/coverage for their size -vs- focal length. What makes the Dagor special is not just sharpness, it is tonality and a certain look to the images they produce. I still own a 12" Dagor and 8 1/2" Dagor specifically for this reason.

IMO, the modern lens designer did what they believed to be an improvement to the Dagor by making it an air spaced plasmat which allowed the largest aperture to be f5.6 -vs- f6.8 of f7.7 on a Dagor with similar image circle/coverage -vs- focal length. In their view this was an improvement over the Dagor. The trade off was size and harsh out of focus rendition and for many, what I perceive as excessively high contrast with less than appealing tonality. This is the hard, high contrast, sharp modern look that appears to have become generic to many modern plasmats.




Bernice

Bernice,
Cost was also a reason the Plasmat came along, although the Plasmat didn't become popular until it could be coated. The Dagor was an expensive lens to produce due to the short radius of curvature of two of the cemented surfaces, these surfaces had to be ground and polished one to a block. The airspace of the Plasmat gave designers two more surfaces and an extra "element" to play with, as well.
Goerz made a few "Super Dagor" f:5.6 lenses, I've often wondered if these were Plasmats.

Dagors have a fair amount of spherical aberration wide open, this gives a nice glow at max. aperture (portraits!), it also causes the focal length to grow as the lens is stopped down. Some exhibit more shift than others, but I've never seen one without shift. Always focus at the working aperture.

E. von Hoegh
28-Mar-2013, 09:46
I dunno. I like my dialyte type Apo-Nikkors and my Boyer Beryls. What's magic about the name Goerz?

Magic? None. The magic was in the Dagor's designer's head. Goerz did supply the quality though.
What I'd really like to see is the reason the Dagor type has such nice tonality. I've tried other 4 surface lenses like the Protar VIIa, and they don't have the same look.

Bernice Loui
28-Mar-2013, 09:57
It does appear cost is a significant factor as making a good Dagor also required hand sorting and tweaking of the individual lenses prior to cementing and assembly to make them function properly. This adds significant production cost to the lens.

The residual spherical aberration wide open of a Dagor is not IMO, a negative it produces a certain look which can be quite nice. Once stopped down, this progressively goes away resulting in a nice sharp lens with really nice tonality. The shift in focus can and does stifle some users as many who are not aware will focus wide open and stop down to make the exposure without checking focus stopped down.. which can result in an image surprise..

Regardless, I still like my Dagors a whole lot and they are going to stay with me for as long as I'm using sheet film.


Bernice



Bernice,
Cost was also a reason the Plasmat came along, although the Plasmat didn't become popular until it could be coated. The Dagor was an expensive lens to produce due to the short radius of curvature of two of the cemented surfaces, these surfaces had to be ground and polished one to a block. The airspace of the Plasmat gave designers two more surfaces and an extra "element" to play with, as well.
Goerz made a few "Super Dagor" f:5.6 lenses, I've often wondered if these were Plasmats.

Dagors have a fair amount of spherical aberration wide open, this gives a nice glow at max. aperture (portraits!), it also causes the focal length to grow as the lens is stopped down. Some exhibit more shift than others, but I've never seen one without shift. Always focus at the working aperture.

Mark Sawyer
28-Mar-2013, 11:00
I have a couple of Gold-Rim Dagoprs (8.25" and 12"), and the same in older uncoated Dagores. Yup, very nice lenses with that caveat of focus shift, not an issue if you can remember... The pherical aberration is pretty subtle, so I don't mind it. Those who do are probably working at f/22 or so anyways...

Would love to have a Celor or Hypar, need to get back to the Hypergon someday...

Drew Wiley
28-Mar-2013, 12:48
I've never used the Goerz lenses, but only their immediate Kern dagor successors, which have no focus shift issues and are
more contrasy than any plasmat I've ever owned, or even any other lens of any format I've ever used. I've heard people claim
the late Goerz Trigors were made by Kern, but don't see any evidence of that. Has anyone seen "Made in Switzerland" on a
Trigor?

Jan Pedersen
28-Mar-2013, 13:39
Also a happy owner of a few Dagors. 210 coated, 240 GD, 300 GR and a 360 Kern Single Coated and finally the 19 RD Artar which i believe is the sharpest LF lens i own.
The 300 GR is my favorite of the 4 but the 210 is not far behind. I don't care much for Plasmat lenses as i find them to have to much contrast.
I don't find that the 360 Kern have higher contrast than other coated Dagors but i have read the the Multi Coated Kern is very high in contrast.

E. von Hoegh
28-Mar-2013, 13:47
I've never used the Goerz lenses, but only their immediate Kern dagor successors, which have no focus shift issues and are
more contrasy than any plasmat I've ever owned, or even any other lens of any format I've ever used. I've heard people claim
the late Goerz Trigors were made by Kern, but don't see any evidence of that. Has anyone seen "Made in Switzerland" on a
Trigor?

Yes, in person and here - http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?80563-FS-A-Pair-of-Beautiful-14-quot-f11-Blue-Dot-Trigors&highlight=goerz+trigor

Drew Wiley
28-Mar-2013, 13:49
That's correct, Jan. The single-coated Kern 360 has about the same contrast as a multi-coated plastmat, but the MC Kern was
way over top - wonderful hue differentiation and microtonality, but almost unusable with transparency films. I sold mine off in preference of the single-coated version, which also happens to have a Copal 3S shutter, which I greatly prefer to the Compur 3 the MC version came in.

Jody_S
28-Mar-2013, 17:26
I think I have 6 Dagors and 2 clones. I like all of them, but the 120mm on 4x5 is my favorite. Tiny lens, sharp, beautiful tonality.

patrickjames
28-Mar-2013, 17:36
The Artars are my favorite lenses, although right not I don't own any. I used to have a 24" back when I had an 8x10 but I sold it years ago. A few years ago when I decided to get back to LF film I went looking for Artars, but they got expensive in the years previous. I do have an APO-Ronar that is in a shutter and spaced for infinity, which is a spectacular lens that I tripped over for a song, that I couldn't pass up. I like Dialytes.

A friend of mine has just about every practical APO Artar, all put in shutters at great expense over the years by Grimes. He loves them too, obviously!

Ken Lee
28-Mar-2013, 17:37
It would be great to see some images made with these lenses. Please share :)

Serge S
28-Mar-2013, 17:44
You read my thoughts Ken:)

Jan Pedersen
28-Mar-2013, 17:57
Ok, i will bite with a first. 240 GD

Ken Lee
28-Mar-2013, 18:09
That is lovely ! Sharp and smooth... like butter :-)

Scott Davis
28-Mar-2013, 18:16
I have just one, a 110mm (4 3/8") Goerz Am.Opt. W.A. Dagor. It will cover 5x7 with movement, missing the corners of 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 wide open. It MIGHT illuminate the whole plate stopped down to f32, but the edges would still be soft. I love it as a wide for 5x7.

Jan Pedersen
28-Mar-2013, 18:19
Thank you Ken.
Here's another one taken with the 210, slightly cropped due to bellows intrusion. North Shore Salton Sea.

Bernice Loui
28-Mar-2013, 19:12
240mm f9 Red Dot Artar Barrel @ f16, Kodak Ektachrome 5x7. This image was made in the mid 1990's, Digitized using a Canon 1ds and zoom lens on light table. So much has been lost in the process (contrast is too high, colors are off and ...), still it does offer some idea of what the Artar does..

92228


Bernice

Bernice Loui
28-Mar-2013, 19:20
Very nice Jan. How does one explain the transition from in to out of focus in words when an image like this says so much..

Note the tonality and inviting quality to this image... even when transmitted via the web where so much has been lost in the process.


Bernice

Vaughn
28-Mar-2013, 20:11
With my 19" RD. I believe.

Scanned pt/pd print.

Jan Pedersen
28-Mar-2013, 20:59
Very nice Bernice, the out of focus part of your image is still so smooth despite your post processing to get it on line. Colors do look good on my monitor.
The advantage of a large format sheet of film does make it easier to make a smooth transition from sharp to a big blur, not sure we can credit the Goerz lenses for just that but we can try can't we?

Vaughn, i like that woody image a lot. the crop is nice and just shows that sticking to the formats we are using limits us a lot.

Another from my favorite 300 GR Dagor and much different from previous posts.

karl french
28-Mar-2013, 21:42
Really lovely Vaughn, as usual.

Vaughn
29-Mar-2013, 00:29
Really lovely Vaughn, as usual.

Thanks! Took it right after the one below of my boys. Very different lens...a 6.25" (159mm) Ex.Wide Angle Wollie. Also a pt/pd print. I think I may have not moved the camera for it.

Colin D
5-Jul-2013, 04:14
With my 19" RD. I believe.

Scanned pt/pd print.

That is wonderful. I haven't got a RD, but this makes me think it is vg, along with the taker.

Bill_1856
5-Jul-2013, 06:28
I have four coated Dagors: 120mm, 6", 8.25", and 12" (on permanent loan from a friend).
I fell in love with Dagors as a teenager from reading the Goerz catalog in my school library's very limited photography section. It was over 25 years before I actually bought one.
The 120 was my first Dagor. It has no number on the rear element so I presume that it was one of the mismatched bastards sold by Burke and James after WW2. Even so, it does a beautiful job.
I must have a vision problem, because I'm not bothered by focus shifts. Using a single element (FL=1.7X) does cause significant problems, of course.
I am still missing the Dagor I would really like to have: a 10" for my 5x7 Kodak 2D. With it I believe that I could become a one camera/one lens photographer (the ideal).

cosmicexplosion
5-Jul-2013, 16:40
i have the 19" dagor goerz, 14" dagor and the generic 9.8? gold dot polaroid... i mainly use the 14" as it seems to work in any situation from far landscapes to portraits, it seems to fit how i want to frame shot.

but... i dropped it, and have to fix shutter. lens is fine, it fell out of bag as the lens board had come loose.

it was quiet funny, it was the worst shot i had ever taken, after dropping lens, i almost got reversed over putting tripod on road behind car, hassled by a mad film maker whilst trying to compose, she was touching my tripod, and i had to almost yell at her! (i was in a state), and then none of the shots came out, and thats only half of it!

i am now using 19" as primary but still prefer the wider view.

i would like 12" coated.

cosmicexplosion
5-Jul-2013, 20:47
correction its a 270mm (10.6")schnieder kreuznach g-clarion not an 250 polaroid, i have not used it yet, and after 2 years of sitting round, i had forgotten, all but the polaroid shutter name.