Paper discoloration - bad paper or bad developer?

[Dan Dozer]

I tried out a new paper developer for the first time - Formulary Liquidol. The paper I use is Ilford MGFB Warm Tone. I tend to keep my prints in the developer close to 3 minutes just to make sure that I'm getting full development out of it. This is a new bottle of developer and a new package of paper. After a few sheets, I started seeing some minor discoloration in one or two of the corners as a noticeable cream tone. This has never happened to me before when I've used 130 developer. I pulled a sheet out of the back of package to try it and it ended up cream all over. So, there is something seriously wrong here. The instructions with this developer say to develop Ilford only for a minute. Could my extended developement time (about two minutes) cause this?

I'm thinking that there might be something wrong with this batch of paper and will be calling Freestyle about it. But I also be calling Formulary to talk to them about the developer as well.

Have any of you used this developer and had any similar problems?

[IanG]

Over delopment of warm tone papers is fairly pointless as you get colder tones, so you shouldn't be developing for 3 times what's recommended by the developer manufacturer. You will increase base fog.

Sounds like a possible fixer problem though.

Ian

[bob carnie]

I agree with Ian about the fixer.

Over delopment of warm tone papers is fairly pointless as you get colder tones, so you shouldn't be developing for 3 times what's recommended by the developer manufacturer. You will increase base fog.

Sounds like a possible fixer problem though.

Ian

[Dan Dozer]

The fixer (TF4) was freshly mixed and this was the first time I used it, so I don't know what could/would have been wrong with it.

[IanG]

The fixer (TF4) was freshly mixed and this was the first time I used it, so I don't know what could/would have been wrong with it.

I guess you didn't use a good acid stop bath.

There's very good reasons why no film/paper manufacturer recommends an alkali developer and neutral/alkali fixer, the reality is that doesn't work unless the fixers very fresh, an acid stop bath helps tthough.

Ian

[Peter Lewin]

I guess you didn't use a good acid stop bath.

There's very good reasons why no film/paper manufacturer recommends an alkali developer and neutral/alkali fixer, the reality is that doesn't work unless the fixers very fresh, an acid stop bath helps tthough.

Ian
Ian, could you expand on your comment a little? For film, I use PMK or HC-110, water as a stop bath, and TF-4 as a fixer. For prints I use either one of the Formulary paper developers, or more commonly Ilford Multigrade print developer, Ilford MGIV FB paper, water as a stop bath, and again TF-4 fixer. I get consistent results, and have never had a problem. So I'm a little confused by your comment about alkaline developers and fixer. Incidentally, the reason I use a water stop bath, even though it isn't as effective a stop as an acid bath, is because the recommendation for TF-4 is to use a plain water stop bath.

[Jim Jones]

I've traced a similar problem to contamination on fingers. Tongs would help, but fingers work better.

[IanG]

Ian, could you expand on your comment a little? For film, I use PMK or HC-110, water as a stop bath, and TF-4 as a fixer. For prints I use either one of the Formulary paper developers, or more commonly Ilford Multigrade print developer, Ilford MGIV FB paper, water as a stop bath, and again TF-4 fixer. I get consistent results, and have never had a problem. So I'm a little confused by your comment about alkaline developers and fixer. Incidentally, the reason I use a water stop bath, even though it isn't as effective a stop as an acid bath, is because the recommendation for TF-4 is to use a plain water stop bath.

Peter, I was referring more specifically to prints in this case but there's carry over of developer into stop bath and fixer, in an all neutral/alkali system the developer isn't be neutralised and can cause staining.

With films a good water rinse before a neutral/alkali fixer is OK but it's not for prints particularly Fibre based. The originator of TF-4 actually uses an acid stop-bath and recommends using one for prints the fixer has sufficient buffering to cope. What you don't want is it getting alkali though.

Ian

[frotog]

I've had old boxes of ilford warmtone go bad on me in the form of a chamois-colored mottling that's at its worst right around the edges. Aren't all the ilford papers developer incorporated? Also, did you know that freestyle marks up this paper approx. 30% more than what it costs at b and h or samy's?

[IanG]

No Ilford papers are developer incorporated now.

All modern warm tone papers will go off unfortunately, I've had this happen with Stering, Agfa Record Rapid and Oriental, it does take quite a few years though well past the recommended shelf life of about 7 years. They also get slightly colder in tone. Older warmtone papers had Cadmium in the emulsion and could be kept much longer.

Ian

[Peter Lewin]

With films a good water rinse before a neutral/alkali fixer is OK but it's not for prints particularly Fibre based. The originator of TF-4 actually uses an acid stop-bath and recommends using one for prints the fixer has sufficient buffering to cope. What you don't want is it getting alkali though.
Ian: Thanks for the thorough response. I will return to using an acid stop for my prints, as I did before I began using TF-4 as my fixer of choice. I had seen a comment about TF-4 having sufficient buffering to allow use of an acid stop (from the very knowledgable "Photoengineer" in the APUG forum), but didn't realize that in fact the acid stop was recommended.

[Dan Dozer]

So - now I'm really confused as well. I've used 130 developer, water for stop bath, and TF4 fixer for years and never saw this problem before. Now the first time I try Liquidol paper developer the problem happens. Does this mean that I've gotten away with it all these years before and the Liquidol is just far enough away in the wrong direction from the alkilinity of the 130, that this problem is now occurring. I'm going to contact Formulary about this to see if they agree.

[IanG]

You need to read Ron Mowrey's posts where he advocates using a stop bath (http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1089446). He's always been adamant that a water rinse is insufficient for prints, he knows far better than the Formulary, he formulated Liquidol & TF-4.

Ian