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ryanmills
24-Mar-2013, 01:27
Shooting TriX320 and developing with HC-110 in trays. I have tried shooting from 200 to 800 and developing with dilutions 1:15, 1:31 and 1:62. All changes done one at a time. Seems like no matter what I get a terrible tone curve. The histagram is shaped like a giant U and its a terrible middle gray. Is there anything I can try to push up the mid-tones or pull back the shadows and highlights?

Sevo
24-Mar-2013, 03:30
Sure your problem is not in the printing or scanning? Or some handling error? It certainly is no matter of film, speed, developer or development times. Tri-X at nominal speed developed to spec sheet time in HC-110 1:31 should come out excellent, and the combination is so forgiving that even the most extreme of your variations should be well within the limits of a very decent (and printable) negative.

jcoldslabs
24-Mar-2013, 03:47
I use HC-110 exclusively, on everything from decades-expired film to fresh T-Max, and it took me a long while to understand how to finesse decent looking scans out of my scanning software even from good negatives. I would ignore the histogram and use your eyes first. With practice you can tell a good negative just from looking at it: whether it's flat, too contrasty or just about right. If you can see that the negative has detail in all the places you want it to, then maybe it's time to investigate the scanning side of things. At least that was true in my case.

Jonathan

Hans Berkhout
24-Mar-2013, 06:42
Try a higher temperature e.g. 24C. (you will have to shorten your dev. time). You could also consider D23 1:1 at 24C.

Jim Jones
24-Mar-2013, 06:45
If your setup permits scanning and editing in 16 bit, do so. This gives you plenty of latitude for curve adjustment.

ryanmills
24-Mar-2013, 09:38
Part of my issue is all i have is a v700 scanner, no enlarger. I have spent a TON of time with vuescan and epson scan. both really do seem useless to me but I really cant find much info on how to do it correctly. I tried Ken lee's page and its kind of how im doing it now but still, they all just horrible and the histogram is really bad, a giant U shapewith nonthing in the middle . About to throw everything out the window.

John NYC
24-Mar-2013, 09:48
Part of my issue is all i have is a v700 scanner, no enlarger. I have spent a TON of time with vuescan and epson scan. both really do seem useless to me but I really cant find much info on how to do it correctly. I tried Ken lee's page and its kind of how im doing it now but still, they all just horrible and the histogram is really bad, a giant U shapewith nonthing in the middle . About to throw everything out the window.

You have to hand adjust the curve with every image. I use the epson software with a similar scanner model (v750) and it works well. As said above, use you eye. Practice scanning the same image using different curves and looking at the results 100% in Photoshop.

photobymike
24-Mar-2013, 09:59
I have a different idea about your problem. The histogram shows what you photographed. Lets say in your image is hi contrast scene. This would give a u shaped histogram. I would try filters like red yellow or green, depending on the scene you photographing. Try more agitation while in the tray. Just some thoughts given the information you have given

ryanmills
24-Mar-2013, 10:18
I have a different idea about your problem. The histogram shows what you photographed. Lets say in your image is hi contrast scene. This would give a u shaped histogram. I would try filters like red yellow or green, depending on the scene you photographing. Try more agitation while in the tray. Just some thoughts given the information you have given

I think that was my oddest result, I used fresh dev at exactly 68 degrees twice. First I shuffled 13+1 (13 old sheets, 1 new exposure), then I turned around and did the same thing at with 2 sheets using the excat same speed. I cant really tell the difference, if anything the 2 sheet is very slightly more exposed.

@John NYC Im back in epson scan, any starting point on the best way to adjust the tone. I see I can do both levels and curves, do you normally adjust both for every photo?

photobymike
24-Mar-2013, 10:21
Yes

ic-racer
24-Mar-2013, 10:57
Under exposure and over development make mid tones darker than what is usually desired. Go back to the basics. How are you determining exposure?

ryanmills
24-Mar-2013, 12:07
Under exposure and over development make mid tones darker than what is usually desired. Go back to the basics. How are you determining exposure?

I have a L358 ambient light meter. I also use a 5d mark II as a poloroid. I know i need to get a good spot meter but just cant afford one right now. I have done bracketed shots +/- one stop just to see if that was it. I could be messing up another step in development.

Right now its:
Distilled water pre soak two shuffles thru the stack unless one sticks -> Distilled water HC110 (all sorts of diffrent things) -> Ilford stop 3 shuffles thru -> Ilford Rapid fix 1:4 ratio (long soak, 5-6 mins) -> Second Ilford Rapid fix 1:4 ratio (long soak, 5-6 mins) -> Distilled water Kodak Hypo Clear long soak ~10mins -> Rise under tap about 4-5 mins each -> final rinse in distilled with photoflo -> hang dry 3-4 hours

Any areas of concern? The long fix is to help with the sensation layer. Could that be damaging my negs?

John NYC
24-Mar-2013, 14:26
@John NYC Im back in epson scan, any starting point on the best way to adjust the tone. I see I can do both levels and curves, do you normally adjust both for every photo?

I do 90 percent of my scans for b&w by only adjusting in the histogram dialog box. I try to get as full of a tonal range there as I can. I make sure that I have not blown out my highlights and that I have not either made my blacks gray and foggy or the opposite, too black to have any detail... unless that is appropriate in the exposure I made.

I save to a TIFF file, then open in Photoshop, where I will do one or more layer curves to finally adjust the tonality and contrast.

Apart from that workflow, each image is a little different, so I can't really give you a starting point. Some images need very little adjustment, others need more.

Paul H
29-Mar-2013, 23:46
I'll start from the assumption that the negative looks ok - there's shadow, highlight and some detail in the middle.

If using Epson scan, set it to professional mode.

Click on the histogram, and set the outputs to 10 and 245 (or there abouts). Now set the endpoints on the inputs - the black (left) one should be just beyond the left edge of the histogram, the right (white) just beyond the right most point of the histogram. The mid point should be somewhere between 1.00 and 1.25. Set sharpening to low, original size, and scan 2400dpi. Scan as a 16 bit TIFF.

When the scan is complete, open in your image editor and set the levels / curves. That should give you a reasonable starting point. At least that way you should be able to see whether or not it is your developing that is causing problems.

Perhaps you could do us a screen shot of Epson Scan when you've got the histogram up?

ki6mf
30-Mar-2013, 17:54
i think you may need to look at the exposure of your shadows. Meter shadow detain and stop down two stops. Ex just picking numbers here ISO 300 F64 shadow reading of 2 seconds would give a zone 5 reading. Changing stops to 1/2 second gets shadows exposed correctly. You may want to re test -don't worry about making great art for this test find a shadow you can get extremely close to and meter and record shadow reading and expose normally. Stronger agitation and stronger developer -more developer less water will increase highlight on the negative. If the budget allows consider using a dedicated hand held spot meter at all times

Brian Ellis
30-Mar-2013, 20:01
There really isn't much of a way to control the midtones by themselves when you're developing film. You can only control the shadows (by in-camera exposure) and the highlights (by development). The midtones just go along for the ride and look like whatever they look like based on your exposure for the shadows and development for the highlights.

photobymike
30-Mar-2013, 20:06
yea what brian said ....although you can do a little tweaking with filters and some lighting from a reflector

ic-racer
31-Mar-2013, 17:19
I have a L358 ambient light meter. I also use a 5d mark II as a poloroid.

How are you getting you exposure index?