11x14 versus 8x10

[LFdilettante]

Hi all,

Looking to step up to LF from canon DSLR and Leica M Rangefinder. Is 11x14 THAT much better than 8x10 in terms of picture quality for contact prints and /or enlargements? I plan to shoot largely portaits, often in environmental settings e.g. factory/restaurant workers etc.

An additional caveat is in terms of equipment, I am not restricted weight wise or monetarily.

Not very specific at this stage I know, I just wondered about the differences in quality to the naked eye, and whether in 5 yrs 11x14 will be largely gone/superseded

Thanks in advance

Newbie (to be)

[Vaughn]

Enlarging 11x14 is, in my opinion, no better than 8x10 up to any reasonable size enlargement that one is likely to make. If you plan on prints larger than bed sheets, 11x14 might give you a better quality image...but finding enlargers or scanners for 11x14 is that more difficult than for 8x10.

I print in alt processes, so it is all contact printing. For this 11x14 is sweet! But I do more 8x10 than 11x14...but that may change....especially when I get around to modifying an 11x14 darkslide to make two 5.5 x 14 images on a single sheet of 11x14 film. But the quality of 8x10 and 11x14 is exactly the same as contact prints -- one is just larger than the other.

As far as photographing, 8x10 is much much easier than 11x14...especially in tight places. The lens used for 11x14 tend to be longer in focal length than those with 8x10, so some depth of field is lost as one moves up to 11x14, but there are other variables that can negate the differences.

[LFdilettante]

Thanks for the response. I greatly appreciate it. Can I extend the topic a little?

Have you found a difference in the response of your subjects to both sizes of LF camera. i.e do you find them more relaxed with the larger or smaller size? Obviously this depends on your 'subject' and your 'persona', but purely from a camera size perspective.....?

[Michael Roberts]

What Vaughn said, plus how big do you want to enlarge? Big difference between an end goal of contacts vs enlarging. For my two cents, I would do 11x14 for contacts and 4x5 for enlarging.

[Mark Woods]

I find that when a view camera is set up, the subject is aware that this is a sitting and responds accordingly.

[John NYC]

Are you ever going to have a hybrid workflow where you scan? Are you only going to shoot b&w? Are you going to develop b&w at home? If so do you have a darkroom or a space big enough to do 11x14?

[Noah A]

I'm not sure if you're asking the right questions yet, and in any event the answers will depend on what you're doing.

Are you shooting color or B&W? How large do you want to print? Are the prints going to digital or optical?

Perhaps most importantly--what do you want the photos to look like? Are you looking for B&W prints with shallow focus and creamy tonality? Or hyper-sharp color images where everything is in focus?

If you've never worked with LF at all, you might be surprised at how much image quality you can get from even 4x5, especially if you drum scan and print digitally. Larger formats mean you might face problems related to depth of field, diffraction, slower shutter speeds (or the need for LOTS of light), etc. Personally, I switched from 8x10 to 4x5 because of these issues. I drum scan my negatives and make very large prints which are very sharp.

Unless you make really, really huge prints, I doubt you'll see much difference in sharpness between prints from a very good 8x10 negative and an 11x14 negative.

As far as film availability, 11x14 is definitely a special-order item and may be subject to minimums. 8x10 is more available. If you're shooting B&W there may be more options, but for color does Fuji do special order sizes? I don't know the answer, bug it's something to consider since the future of Kodak is something I wouldn't want to bet on. (Kodak does offer special-order ULF film.) I guess since money is no object, I'd recommend buying a few year's worth of film no matter which format you choose. And in five years? Your guess is as good as mine.

I think there is a certain dynamic that happens when you do portraits with large format. Of course this can vary by your personality, the way you shoot, and of course the subject. But I haven't noticed much difference between how subjects react to 4x5 vs 8x10. They're both large. They both require the subject to concentrate and stay still. So I don't think you'll find that they react all that differently between 8x10 and 11x14. They're both going to be large cameras that require a lot of concentration from both the photographer and the subject.

[Alan Gales]

You can scan 8x10 on an Epson V700 or V750 flatbed scanner. An 11x14 is too big to fit.

Contact printing 11x14 would be nice as mentioned earlier.

[Jonathan Barlow]

If weight and cost are not an issue, why not 16x20? Contact prints in that size are really impressive.

[ic-racer]

Hi all,

Looking to step up to LF from canon DSLR and Leica M Rangefinder.

I don't think one can just buy an 11x14 camera and start shooting. Maybe you can, but in my experience shooting and enlarging 8x10 is not like going to Best Buy and getting a digital camera.

[sully75]

yep. shoot 4x5. maybe 5x7. make your mistakes. Unless you have some very, very patient teacher and/or a lot of money.

The point of 11x14 is bigger contact prints. (at least to me). End of story.

[Michael Kadillak]

I regularly use 8x10 (Canham wood, Toyo 810M and Calumet C1), 11x14 (Deardorff V11) and 8x20 (Canham wood) field cameras and find that each has their place and time to use. A well executed 11x14 contact print is a thing of beauty but the risk/reward relationship of using each format is a variable that needs to be understood and implemented. I find that images I am interested in making conform to either a rectangular format or a panoramic format hence the choice of 8x10/11x14 comes down to logistical issues that range from getting the camera to the shooting location or being able to properly execute the desired image (having the right lens for 11x14) or the such. Since 8x10 is what I considered my point and shoot camera, I find that I am far more mobile with this format. In 11x14 I figure that I have roughly an incremental 25-30# of weight to deal with when making photographs with my set up. This is never an issue when I am shooting near my truck, I have plenty of time to set up and I have the proper lens that will get me the framing I want with the image. I do not have problems with securing 11x14 sheet film as HP5 is a stock item at Freestyle and B&H and FP4 and Delta 100 can be ordered from Ilford during their ULF special order. When I am in a hurry with light changing I find my Toyo 810M is my choice because I am faster with it and I have more optics to choose.

At the end of the day the reason that I like 11x14 is that it is a much larger contact print image and it is a commitment to what all contact printers desire. If you want to be one of the few then this is a format that is well worth the effort. If you want quick and easy, then maybe not.

[LFdilettante]

Thanks to all for time taken to respond. Much food for thought. Looks like I'll cut my teeth on a 4x5 then work my way up from there.

[wiggywag]

I only do contact printing, but if I would do enlarging, I would go for 5x7. It gives you the joy of working on a larger groundglass (don't underestimate that point). The 4x5 is a bit too small for my taste, moving up was a revelation. You also have a nice size for doing contacts as well. The perfect compromise; size, quality and cost.

[Lachlan 717]

I think that you can scan the negs on an Epsom XL10000.

[Michael Kadillak]

Do your best to get behind the ground glass of as big a camera as you can. As mentioned above, I find the largest viewing area obtainable to be the easiest to compose and focus critically. It is like migrating from that dorm room portable television to a modern big screen high definition flat screen. Dealing with the logistics in the field and in the darkroom is the price of admission to this addicting experience.

[Brian C. Miller]

LFdilettante, you should purchase a camera for contact printing based on the size of prints you like to look at. Do you usually like to look at 8x10, 11x14, or 16x20?

The larger the camera, the tougher the logistics, the fewer lenses you'll have to choose from. That's just the way it is. Does that limit your photography? Kind of. How many shots do you think you'll need to make in a day? That's the number of film holders you'll need to buy, eventually. (A lot of times both sheets in a holder will be used for one shot.)

For enlargement, as others have written, you won't see an obvious difference between the formats, not until you get up to wall-sized or larger. There are also not too many labs these days that have 8x10 enlargers, so you'll have to hunt around a bit. But once you find those labs, oh yeah!

Here's the thing about 8x10 and 11x14: The larger formats really change the way that you "see" things. Sure, they are unwieldy, but it's just the way that they handle that changes things. How can I put this? The 8x10 makes my 4x5 seem compact and handy. The way that the holders feel, and the way that camera handles, really makes the statement, "I am a camera!" There are almost no bad lenses for this format. Lenses from the late 1800s are still good, but you might need to have a mount custom machined for a new shutter.

Looking at a seriously large negative is a real treat, especially when it just came from your camera. Fuji still cuts Provia E6 film in 8x10 size, and I really recommend running through a box just for the joy of it. If you want to see what 8x10 or 11x14 delivers, check eBay for slides, or post a WTB in the For-Sale forum.

You can get started with 8x10 or 11x14 contact prints using a pinhole camera and making contact prints. That's the fastest start, and all you need is a cardboard box, black cloth "gaffer's" tape, a piece of foil and a pin to make the pinhole, and enlarging paper. You can make a paper negative, and contact print from that. It's cheap, and then you'll know if you want to pursue it further.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I'll jump in here as one who shoots multiple ULF formats. I agree with Michael in that my 8x10 is my point and shoot and my go to camera. My problem is 11x14 or 14x17! Now I only contact print in carbon transfer. The work is demanding but it knocks my socks off to see a 14x17 carbon print hanging on my wall. I need to shoot the 11x14 more as I love the image size and contact printing. If I was going to scan I don't think I'd go beyond 8x10. Film, x-ray film is availble in 8x10, 11x14 and 14x17. What's not to like. I do have plenty of traditional film in these sizes as well. Food for thought.

[Bernice Loui]

Bigger is not better, it is more of a different tool for image creation, nothing more, nothing less. There are images that can be made using your DSLR or Leica M that can never be made using a view camera and images made using a view camera that cannot be made using a DSLR or Leica M.

If wondering over higher resolution/sharpness alone will make a better image, no, those alone will not.

8x10 makes a reasonable contact print size. When it comes to contact prints, bigger can be better, but know all it's limitations and liabilities involved before taking on any sheet film format.

I'll also add, using a view camera larger than 4x5 is significantly more difficult due to a host of factors and moving beyond 5x7, the choice of optics becomes significantly more limited. Going to 11x14 and beyond the choices in optics is quite limited. Then there is the film and all involved post process to arrive at the finished image. The camera is just the very beginning of a long process to the finished print.



Bernice




Hi all,

Looking to step up to LF from canon DSLR and Leica M Rangefinder. Is 11x14 THAT much better than 8x10 in terms of picture quality for contact prints and /or enlargements? I plan to shoot largely portaits, often in environmental settings e.g. factory/restaurant workers etc.

An additional caveat is in terms of equipment, I am not restricted weight wise or monetarily.

Not very specific at this stage I know, I just wondered about the differences in quality to the naked eye, and whether in 5 yrs 11x14 will be largely gone/superseded

Thanks in advance

Newbie (to be)

[Vaughn]

I will disagree with Bernice in that 8x10 can be considered a standard working size format, especially for professional photographers (excepting perhaps photo-journalists and wedding photographers). Optics are not limited, but quite common. Use is not difficult with a little experience. I will agree that shuttered lenses for 11x14 are not common...or at least not as common as barrel lenses that will cover 11x14.

I did find moving from 4x5 to 5x7 to be a non-issue...very easy and natural. Moving from 5x7 to 8x10 was a little more of a jump.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

"I plan to shoot largely portraits, often in environmental settings e.g. factory/restaurant workers etc."

with 4x5 or 5x7 the image will usually be enlarged in the print, with 11x14 it's enlarged in camera. You must get closer with longer lenses = very little DOF, kinda tough for environmental portraits. Easiest answer is to try out an 8x10 with 5x7 reducer back. As you go up in format the prices for everything expand exponentially while availability decreases exponentially, the lines cross at 8x10.

Have fun with it.

[Erik Larsen]

I'll throw my 2 cents in on the subject. I have used 4/5, 5/7, 8/10 and 11/14 formats and considering you would like to do on location portraits (I'm assuming poorly lit spaces?) I would think it would be difficult with 11/14 given the lens choices available to the average joe are not gonna be very fast and it will be difficult for the sitter to maintain a pose unless you can control the lighting - it might be a fun challenge to try though. If you can control the light 11/14 makes a very beautiful portrait camera.

With 8/10 you'll have a better assortment of faster lenses to choose from making it a little simpler to accomplish your goal of environmental portraits. You'll have to decide if you can live with the smaller negative of 8/10 vs 11/14. 8/10 enlargers show up frequently but rarely 11/14 enlargers. The image quality between the 2 sizes in a contact print will be similar IMO but the 11/14 will command a presence the 8/10 doesn't due to size alone. I have settled on 8/10 for almost everything now with everything else collecting dust. Film choices are a bit larger for stock items and it is no problem to enlarge with my 8/10 enlarger if I want. I enjoy alt processes so anything smaller than 8/10 doesn't appeal to me and if I want a larger negative to work with I just enlarge onto litho film now instead of reaching for a larger camera. Having said that, 11/14 is a lot of fun to work with:)

It sounds as if budget is not a problem for you and if I were in that position I would try both formats and pick which one that you get along with best. You'll probably be able to get your money back by selling the format you don't want to use.
Regards
Erik

[LFdilettante]

Thanks again all.

More valuable advice which is really making me evaluate what I want from large format.

It is becoming apparent the more I delve into this that so many variables are involved, so many 'horses for courses'. Please keep the comments coming, I am learning a lot, and researching all the minutiae alluded to in your posts.

[wiggywag]

Thanks again all.

More valuable advice which is really making me evaluate what I want from large format.

It is becoming apparent the more I delve into this that so many variables are involved, so many 'horses for courses'. Please keep the comments coming, I am learning a lot, and researching all the minutiae alluded to in your posts.

The greatest joy for me in LF has been contact printing. No need for an enlarger. Wonderful quality (best possible) super sharp and wonderful tonality. You can use the best paper in the world, Lodima. If I was you I would read the articles on this page, I have gone a long journey, used a lot of money, my search is over, I can now concentrate on the art alone:
http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/writings_topost.html

[Thom Bennett]

+1. Nothing like a well-made contact print from a large negative.


The greatest joy for me in LF has been contact printing. No need for an enlarger. Wonderful quality (best possible) super sharp and wonderful tonality. You can use the best paper in the world, Lodima. If I was you I would read the articles on this page, I have gone a long journey, used a lot of money, my search is over, I can now concentrate on the art alone:
http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/writings_topost.html

[John Kasaian]

The attraction of 11x14 for me would be making contact prints. The detraction for me is the price in $$ and wieght:(
There was a gal in my town who developed quite a clientele for her 11x14 platinum print portraits.

[Michael Kadillak]

While mistakes that occasionally take place such as light leaks, lens flare or unintentional peripheral objects infringing into the image area are really a drag, there exists in these disappointments a strong incentive to strive for perfection that ensures you bring your best vision and craft to the dance and I feel this makes you a better photographer by sheer necessity. Many times I find the process of go/no go with a possible image is also more carefully scrutinized with the consequences of the weight and getting the 11x14 camera and the necessary complimentary components in play are considered as another camera/tool may be better served. Portraits are one example of this issue. Many times if the light is not immediately flashing green with a potential image I either use a smaller format or move on down the road. I believe that part of the challenge is to recognize that the time I have to make images with a full time job away from photography is highly valued and I want to make the best use of it. Some days the 11x14 does not get out of the case but that is OK with me. I would rather have it available for the possibility that could be just around the corner ready to go than not. I have also taken to carrying around hand held clippers that come in handy if I need to excise a twig or a lone branch from my composition as I have learned to stop down and check every square inch of GG. As long as I am physically capable of lugging my V11 around, it will continue to put a smile on my face when I get behind that GG. Simply marvelous.....

[John Kasaian]

While mistakes that occasionally take place such as light leaks, lens flare or unintentional peripheral objects infringing into the image area are really a drag, there exists in these disappointments a strong incentive to strive for perfection that ensures you bring your best vision and craft to the dance and I feel this makes you a better photographer by sheer necessity. Many times I find the process of go/no go with a possible image is also more carefully scrutinized with the consequences of the weight and getting the 11x14 camera and the necessary complimentary components in play are considered as another camera/tool may be better served. Portraits are one example of this issue. Many times if the light is not immediately flashing green with a potential image I either use a smaller format or move on down the road. I believe that part of the challenge is to recognize that the time I have to make images with a full time job away from photography is highly valued and I want to make the best use of it. Some days the 11x14 does not get out of the case but that is OK with me. I would rather have it available for the possibility that could be just around the corner ready to go than not. I have also taken to carrying around hand held clippers that come in handy if I need to excise a twig or a lone branch from my composition as I have learned to stop down and check every square inch of GG. As long as I am physically capable of lugging my V11 around, it will continue to put a smile on my face when I get behind that GG. Simply marvelous.....

V11! The Mother of All 'dorfs! I'm jealous!:o

[Vaughn]

It helps to have three guys like this to help carry the 11x14 equipment (they turn 16 in a few days)! But somehow they disappeared when it came time to haul everything back up the hill! Smart kids!

11x14 contact print onto some old paper that I can't remember the name of.

Either a 270mm or 300mm lens...can't remember. I think the camera is a Kodak Empire View...I can never remember.

[Jim Graves]

Hi all,

.... Is 11x14 THAT much better than 8x10 in terms of picture quality for contact prints and /or enlargements? I plan to shoot largely portaits, often in environmental settings e.g. factory/restaurant workers etc.

An additional caveat is in terms of equipment, I am not restricted weight wise or monetarily.

Not very specific at this stage I know, I just wondered about the differences in quality to the naked eye, and whether in 5 yrs 11x14 will be largely gone/superseded

Newbie (to be)

You ask one question and suppose another:

1st ... Is 11x14 THAT much better than 8x10 for contact print portaits? --- the answer is a lttle quirky ... the quality is virtually indistinguishable ... but the IMPACT ... size-wise ... of an 11x14 portrait on the wall is exponentially greater than an 8x10 portrait.

2d ... Will 11x14 be largely gone/superseded soon? .... Short answer no.

You also say that you have no weight or money issues in your decision to choose between 11x14 and 8x10. If you are sure about that and really understand the differences entailed in all the limitations the larger size imposes on you ..... you'd be crazy to opt for the smaller size ... with the option of using an 8x10 back on your 11x14 camera when you decide it's appropriate to your subject.

I will add this ... for most of us who have become used to using 8x10s and then move up ... we are not just a lttle bit surprised about how much what seems like a little step up constrains our choices and procedues.

If I was enlarging ... rather than doing contact prints ... I'd use 4x5 because of ease of use and much greater options in lenses, film, enlargers, etc.

But ... If I was working in a studio type setting, doing portaits only, 11x14 would be my format of choice.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

It helps to have three guys like this to help carry the 11x14 equipment (they turn 16 in a few days)! But somehow they disappeared when it came time to haul everything back up the hill! Smart kids!

11x14 contact print onto some old paper that I can't remember the name of.

Either a 270mm or 300mm lens...can't remember. I think the camera is a Kodak Empire View...I can never remember.

With those three hungry mouths you really have to keep working.! Great looking young men!

[Jonathan Barlow]

It helps to have three guys like this to help carry the 11x14 equipment (they turn 16 in a few days)! But somehow they disappeared when it came time to haul everything back up the hill! Smart kids!

11x14 contact print onto some old paper that I can't remember the name of.

Either a 270mm or 300mm lens...can't remember. I think the camera is a Kodak Empire View...I can never remember.


Fraternal triplets?

[Vaughn]

Fraternal triplets?

Yep -- different body styles, different personalities, all with hollow legs!

[Scott Davis]

Another thought on 11x14 which has been suggested in other comments - working style. 4x5, 5x7, 8x10 all have a pretty similar working style. If you use one, the others will feel fairly similar to operate. 11x14 is the gateway Ultra-Large Format camera. Just as going to 4x5 from medium format or 35mm is a quantum change in methodology, so is going from garden-variety large format to 11x14. If switching to large format forced you to slow down and think more about composition, lighting, etc, well, 11x14 will make shooting 4x5 feel like cracking off snapshots with a Rolleiflex in comparison. If you're thinking of doing environmental portraiture, I'd go for the smaller format as others have suggested. On the other hand, if money and weight are really not an object, you could get some really serious strobe pack/head kits like a Profoto Pro-8a 2400 Air or a Broncolor Scoro 3200E. They'll cost you, between $8K-$13K for the packs alone, but you'll have enough light to drive just about anything you want.

[Thom Bennett]

We just unpacked a show of Alternative process work (http://www.neworleansphotoalliance.org/) that opens this weekend and there were a few 11x14 prints in there; a wet plate collodion and a couple of palladium prints. Wow! I have got to get that Century #1 11x14 camera up and running. As an 8x10 shooter I'm pretty happy with that size but 11x14 really takes it up a notch size-wise. They looked enormous next to the 8x10 work. Nice images, too.

[Kodachrome25]

If weight and cost are not an issue, why not 16x20? Contact prints in that size are really impressive.

I have already decided that if I ever go bigger than 4x5 which I doubt I would, I would go to 16x20 and contact print as I use an all analog workflow, shoot only black and white and intend to keep it that way. I feel my 4x5 kit is very light and is similar to what I would carry in terms of weight and bulk in digital 35mm or my Hasselblad system, film holders aside.

I suppose 11x14 contacts would be nice too but man that is a lot of bulk, weight and expense for what I would consider to be a limited format, hence the desire to truly impart a unique print at 16x20 in a contact workflow. This is why I feel 4x5 is my perfect big size, I enlarge and finding the gear in which to do so is a lot easier than 8x10 let alone 11x14.

Remember, the number one thing that makes a photograph great is the impact and emotion of what is in the frame, not the waxing poetic about the bigger ground glass, the fine details and tones of the larger format print, etc.

I have seen a *few* ULF contact prints that made me go wow....but only a few because otherwise, most of what I have seen has been somewhat boring in terms of subject matter, nuance of light and composition. This is why for me at least, my most productive formats are medium and 4x5.

But the idea of spending not hours but possibly days in nailing a single jaw dropping shot with a 16x20 camera has certain appeal, it's just a heck of a lot of limitation and work not to mention expense, but that journey is different for sure....maybe one day.