Sticking with 8x10 or just holding on to 4x5 format?

[dimento]

I'm sure this is a debate that's happened here many times. I am trying to justify to myself the cost of maintaining an 8x10 habit.

I bought a Cambo 8x10 through the forum in parts and after many months managed to scrape together a full kit including a nice enough lens and 2 8x10 holders. I also have a 4x5 Sinar F1 and 1 lens, which tbh I use more than the 8x10.
I reckon I need 8-10 holders to make the 8x10 usable for the kind of projects I have in mind (predominately portraiture). Deep down I know that it's not really about the format or the look with portraits, but rather the connection and engagement.

My thoughts are this: either retain the lens and holders plus unused film for future use (possible with a sinar conversion for my F1) and sell the Cambo (to fund a w/a lens for the F1 and some other bits and bobs) or sell the whole 8x10 kit and concentrate on 4x5 and smaller.

I reckon I could get back into 8x10 at a later date for between $400-$600 if I retain the lens and film holders.

I work p/t as a photography teacher and whilst I used to get 'enough' freelancing work, it has declined significantly, I will lose my teaching position in September due to Govt cutbacks and will have to try and make a 'proper' go of the freelancing. My business 'voice' which is pretty quiet, says "sell the 8x10", but the other voice says, "you busted a gut to get the kit together-hang in there"

Has anyone faced a similar dilemma and what did you do?

Many thanks

[Sdrubansky]

Same dilemma, decision made: my 8x10 projects are well finished, it was fun and definetly worth it,
but the 8x10 kit I used will make its way to the classified section very soon.

4x5 is still my main photographic interest and a lot of experiments are yet to come.

These kind of decisions are also based on whether you have any sort of income from
your photography of if it is just an expensive, joyful mode of self expression.

Cheers,
Mat

[dimento]

Same dilemma, decision made: my 8x10 projects are well finished, it was fun and definetly worth it,
but the 8x10 kit I used will make its way to the classified section very soon.

4x5 is still my main photographic interest and a lot of experiments are yet to come.

These kind of decisions are also based on whether you any sort of income from
your photography of if it is just an expensive, joyful mode of self expression.

Cheers,
Mat

Thanks Matt, you sound more decisive than me. It's always a balancing act. There's no doubt the 8x10 has a 'look' but in my case, in spite of my education in photography, and the fact that I should know better, I tend to mistake a 'technique' or 'format' with having a photographic 'vision' or 'voice' and then remind myself however briefly that Avedon has the same voice whether he shot in 6x6 or 8x10. In my case it's a mode of self expression and needs to become more of a income source. I make a very modest amount from stock, used to do lots of editorial assignments(albeit badly paid). Nobody has commissioned any l/f work specifically, nor are they likely to. Lots of thought required.

[Sdrubansky]

Very undestandable doubts. 8x10 is a very difficult yet seductive format, with inherent pathos and charm.
Yet one should not overemphasize the format and always make sure the medium is coherent with the overall
goals and processes. It is, as you say, a question of balance. Ask yourself why you think/feel you need to use
8x10 film rather than other film or digital formats. If it is an integral part of the language and the story, use it.

For me at the moment it is about getting rid of all excess and redundancy and trying to find the marrow of vision.
Depending on the ideas being developed this may be achieved using anything from 4x5 film to phone camera digital.

[dimento]

Very undestandable doubts. 8x10 is a very difficult yet seductive format, with inherent pathos and charm.
Yet one should not overemphasize the format and always make sure the medium is coherent with the overall
goals and processes. It is, as you say, a question of balance. Ask yourself why you think/feel you need to use
8x10 film rather than other film or digital formats. If it is an integral part of the language and the story, use it.

For me at the moment it is about getting rid of all excess and redundancy and trying to find the marrow of vision.
Depending on the ideas being developed this may be achieved using anything from 4x5 film to phone camera digital.

Yes, indeed. 8x10 is very seductive, I guess what brought me into it is the slowness, and the detail. The main thing putting me off is the cost. I just invested in 1 box of Fomapan 8x10 film, but realistically I'd need to invest in another 6 or so film holders in order not to be changing film with every sitter. I'd be interested to see some of your work, best, D

[ImSoNegative]

strange thing is I have been thinking over the exact same thing for the last few days, I decided I need to let the 8x10 go, the camera and everything that goes with it, 4x5 is where I started and that is where I will return.

[dimento]

strange thing is I have been thinking over the exact same thing for the last few days, I decided I need to let the 8x10 go, the camera and everything that goes with it, 4x5 is where I started and that is where I will return.

Interesting coincidence, did you make much work with the 8x10 & any thoughts on how the process or result differed for you vs 4x5? D

[AJ Edmondson]

Faced with the same decision not too long ago I reluctantly decided to scale back from 8x10 to 4x5 and slowly disposed of all of the 8x10 equipment. At this stage (70 years) I am certain it was the right decision though I do look back on the many years when 8x10 was my only format - with fondness. For me, despite the similarities in the actions required for both formats, there is still a difference in the approach with the 8x10 simply being more contemplative. I enjoy the 4x5 and am completely satisfied but, if there were absolutely no constraints (expense, weight, diminishing visual acuity, etc.) I would still be working with the 8x10. Good luck with making your choice!

Joel

[Brian Ellis]

I've gone back and forth with 8x10 - bought a Deardorff, sold the Deardorff, bought another Deardorff, sold another Deardorff. The problem for me is that I find no difference in the technical quality of 8x10 photographs compared to 4x5 at my usual print sizes. But I really enjoy using an 8x10 camera and gear, much more so than any smaller format. So I vacillate between the practical - forget 8x10 - and the pleasure - keep 8x10. For the last several years practical has won out. Sorry that this probably is of no help to you since it likely mirrors what you're going through.

[John NYC]

I did 8x10 for about three years. I loved it. (Bought my first 8x10 lens from AJ above!). When I got into it, I thought I was going to be doing contact prints; that's why I went up from my short time in 4x5 before. However, once I started shooting it, I realized what I loved doing was shooting chromes (and a lot if it at night or dusk) and scanning them. And the project I found to work on at the time was a good fit for the tonal and resolution capacity of 8x10.

My tiring of that project coincided with Kodak's stopping production of E100G, which had become my favorite film by far. I also then got a D800E and more into digital than ever. So I sold off all LF gear.

Then I missed the workflow of LF, so I decided to get a 4x5 monorail, as my 8x10 had been a field camera. And only to shoot B&W. I also never stopped shooting MF, and in fact, that is what I still shoot the most of.

So now it is a Sinar F2 4x5, a Rollei 2.8F and the D800E. I am happy for now with all those riches.

[Ken Lee]

And then there's... 5x7 (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?57170-In-Praise-of-5x7-Post-em-!) :cool:

[neil poulsen]

You might consider saving the 8x10 for those projects for which that format applies.

I say this as I gear up to photograph using a Deardorff I purchased.

[Vaughn]

I do mostly landscapes/alt processes, so my situation is quite different. I thought about getting rid of the 4x5 as I do not use it much and I find the 8x10 easy and natural to use. Glad I did not -- it is a fun little camera to use and I am using it again for a project or two while backpacking. I am not using the 11x14 as much as I thought, but I might get it out this week.

[Bill Burk]

I think Vaughn, you give the strongest argument for keeping the 8x10, alt processes.

If they're a part of your plan, then keep the big camera.

[Jan Pedersen]

Last year i had to let go of either my 4x5 or my 8x10 kit to finance the investment in the D800 adventure. I chose to let the 4x5 kit go as i have a freezer full of film and many good lenses for 8x10
The 8x10 format also to me set it appart so much from any digital capture, one important consideration.
I have not used the 8x10 much in the last two years but i know the desire will come back and to have to reinvest in a good 8x10 set-up is quite costly why i desided to keep it.

[tgtaylor]

I got into 8x10 by sheer serendipity: I received a 20% off coupon from Ebay and went online to purchase an 80mm El Nikkor and took a peak in the LF camera listings and there was this big beutiful all black Toyo-View that looked like it was going to go for a reasonable price. It did and so did a 360mm mint Schneider Symmer-S a short while latter! Then I "discovered" the alternative processes and got hooked! Although the 8x10 is a big and heavy monster suitable only for the studio or pavement, I'll never let it go. The salt prints, for example, that you can create with it are absolutely gem-like. Dry-mounted and hung in 11x14 frames they make the perfect enhancement to a living or work space.

Thomas

[dimento]

Faced with the same decision not too long ago I reluctantly decided to scale back from 8x10 to 4x5 and slowly disposed of all of the 8x10 equipment. At this stage (70 years) I am certain it was the right decision though I do look back on the many years when 8x10 was my only format - with fondness. For me, despite the similarities in the actions required for both formats, there is still a difference in the approach with the 8x10 simply being more contemplative. I enjoy the 4x5 and am completely satisfied but, if there were absolutely no constraints (expense, weight, diminishing visual acuity, etc.) I would still be working with the 8x10. Good luck with making your choice!

Joel

HI Joel, I get that completely, it is a lovely format to use, once you've "gotten it there" and have set up. It's the in-between bits, plus the exponential rise in film cost. It's very difficult to justify $160 for 10 sheets of film, plus processing (which runs about $6 a sheet here) For me it's never a format I could afford to use all the time, rather a 'special' projects camera. And with the need to make money from freelancing without extortionate cost and hassle, it's a difficult choice, I do agree that with plenty $$$ and less weight hassle it would be great, D

[dimento]

I got into 8x10 by sheer serendipity: I received a 20% off coupon from Ebay and went online to purchase an 80mm El Nikkor and took a peak in the LF camera listings and there was this big beutiful all black Toyo-View that looked like it was going to go for a reasonable price. It did and so did a 360mm mint Schneider Symmer-S a short while latter! Then I "discovered" the alternative processes and got hooked! Although the 8x10 is a big and heavy monster suitable only for the studio or pavement, I'll never let it go. The salt prints, for example, that you can create with it are absolutely gem-like. Dry-mounted and hung in 11x14 frames they make the perfect enhancement to a living or work space.

Thomas

agreed, things of beauty, versus being able to afford to shoot more, tough choice

[dimento]

Fair point, I know to my cost, literally, the difficulty of getting back into a format.

[dimento]

You might consider saving the 8x10 for those projects for which that format applies.

I say this as I gear up to photograph using a Deardorff I purchased.

Good advice Neil, it brings to mind a photographer in an entirely different league to me, Mary Ellen Mark, who uses the 20x24 polaroid for special projects, and extremely expensive commissions from wealthy portrait clients ($20000 starting point, details here: http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/polaroid_commissions/polaroid_commisions.html )

I might feel a little different if I wasn't using a studio camera in the field.

[dimento]

I've gone back and forth with 8x10 - bought a Deardorff, sold the Deardorff, bought another Deardorff, sold another Deardorff. The problem for me is that I find no difference in the technical quality of 8x10 photographs compared to 4x5 at my usual print sizes. But I really enjoy using an 8x10 camera and gear, much more so than any smaller format. So I vacillate between the practical - forget 8x10 - and the pleasure - keep 8x10. For the last several years practical has won out. Sorry that this probably is of no help to you since it likely mirrors what you're going through.

Been there Brian, I've owned and sold a few 8x10 cameras & 4x5. Practical is important. The time spent worrying about formats could be better spent making photographs

[C. D. Keth]

You just need to ask yourself what you want out of a format. If 8x10 doesn't fit that then it has to go. If it does fit that model, you keep it.

[John NYC]

Good advice Neil, it brings to mind a photographer in an entirely different league to me, Mary Ellen Mark, who uses the 20x24 polaroid for special projects, and extremely expensive commissions from wealthy portrait clients ($20000 starting point, details here: http://www.maryellenmark.com/text/polaroid_commissions/polaroid_commisions.html )

I might feel a little different if I wasn't using a studio camera in the field.

I love her book of 20x24 Polaroids of prom goers. Nice stuff.

[andreios]

As it was already said -I think that the only real benefit of anything larger than 4x5 (Or 5x7) is contact printing alt processes.But even there - you could go away with ink-jet negatives. However, after a brief spell with 4x5 I'm now enjoying my 5x7 but getting ready to answer the call for 18x24cm...

[goodfood]

I shoot 4x5 for over 30 years with 4X5 darkroom too. Few years ago I save some money and jump to 8X10 camera and some lenses and holders for a try. After several boxes of film, I feel very expensive. Price increase a lot. Another think is carrying about 50 lbs per outing for the system in my car. Now jump back to light weight 4X5 again can make a light hiking. I still keep my 8X10 system for dust.

[Ari]

If money isn't the main issue, keep the 8x10. If money is an issue, sell it and wait for the day when you can get back into it.

[kev curry]

I really see no point in parting with the 10x8 unless you need the cash for something else. Things change. You just might find your desire for 10x8 reignited 6 months from now and then you remember that the cameras gone...

[dimento]

Ari and Kev, sage advice, money unfortunately is always the issue, it's the old catch 22, have camera but will need to invest more in holders, my inclination is to keep half a toe in, i.e., sell the camera but keep holders film and lens and then dip back in when things improve, thanks for your two cents andyway guys

[Vaughn]

I really see no point in parting with the 10x8 unless you need the cash for something else. Things change. You just might find your desire for 10x8 reignited 6 months from now and then you remember that the cameras gone...

Thus I have two 4x5's (field and a press), a 5x7, two 8x10's and an 11x14...:eek:

[kev curry]

Ari and Kev, sage advice, money unfortunately is always the issue, it's the old catch 22, have camera but will need to invest more in holders, my inclination is to keep half a toe in, i.e., sell the camera but keep holders film and lens and then dip back in when things improve, thanks for your two cents andyway guys

Sounds like the prudent thing to do.

[Maris Rusis]

Years ago when I went broke (company failure) I ditched all my 35mm, rollfilm, and 4x5 gear and just kept the 8x10. It was the cheapest option in a poverty situation. By limiting myself to fifty 8x10 sheets of film per year I could still work at the highest technical level while keeping expenses under strict control. If you think about it fifty really fine photographs in a year is pretty good productivity.

Remember, Edward Weston arguably had one of the most exemplary lifetime careers in photography and he produced nothing but 8x10 contacts.

[karl french]

Actually, he (EW) produced a huge volume of 3x4 and 4x5 portraits to pay the bills until 1937. Still, 8x10 is my favorite format.

[Flauvius]

Consider a 4x5 reducing back as a quasi solution to your dilemma.

[ac12]

Sounds like you do not NEED to sell stuff for cash, since you are saying you would put the proceeds towards a 2nd 4x5 lens.
Therefore, I would keep the 8x10 gear and stick it in storage. Then later when things are better, continue to gather the rest of the kit and you can shoot 8x10.
That way you don't loose money in selling it and loose money again buying the same stuff later.
And IF you get a commission that would call for the 8x10, you have it. Granted you would have to rent the additional pieces (like film holders) for the gig. But that keeps it in play.

BUT, if you make the decision to go 4x5, then cut the tie and abandon 8x10. Sell all the 8x10 stuff, and use the proceeds to add to your 4x5 kit. Depending on what other film formats you have, you probably would need a wide and long lens for your 4x5 to make a flexible kit. But, you could also rent the required lens(es) for any commission/gig that calls for the 4x5. Because there is always the probability that the lens in your kit won't be what you need anyway. Example, I have a 90mm, but I might need an even wider lens, a 65 or 75mm, so I would have to rent the lens anyway.

To me, the halfway option is not really a decision.
It can be just as hard (time and money) replacing the camera later, as it would be to gather the extra pieces you need.
Although if you want to change systems, say from camera brand X to brand Y, this would be how to do it.

[AuditorOne]

I don't pull it out often, and when I do it is always a learning experience, but I will be keeping my 8x10 for a very long time. I like shooting normal 8x10 film but I also work with 8x10 paper negs and will soon start to coat my own film.

[welly]

I don't pull it out often, and when I do it is always a learning experience

:rolleyes:

[Noah B]

And then there's... 5x7 (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?57170-In-Praise-of-5x7-Post-em-!) :cool:

I delved into 8x10 about 3 years ago and shot it for 2 years. I loved making contact prints, but the aspect ratio was a little too boxy for me. The cost of the film was getting to me since I shot a box of hp5 every two weeks. Add that to the frustration of making work that wasn't cutting it and I decided to sell my rig. I love 8x10 but for me I think it's more of a "use it for a certain project" based format. I shot a lot of 6x9 and 35mm and I just love the look of the format. I delved into 5x7 last fall and haven't looked back yet. It fits perfectly with how I make pictures. Go with your gut and good luck!

[Ben Calwell]

For me, I didn't experience the "wow" factor with 8x10. To my eyes, a 4x5enlargement looked just as good as an 8x10 contact print, but that's probably more a testament to my lack of skills with the larger format. I'm sticking with 4x5.

[Peter Gomena]

I'll echo some of Noah B's comment above. Fit the camera to the project. If you don't have the camera, the project won't happen. I ditched my 8x10 gear after about 3-4 years because it was expensive overkill for what I do. 4x5 will fit the bill most of the time, and I hated contact printing in silver-gelatin. Then, one day, I walked into a mom-and-pop photo store and saw a whole-plate kit for sale, complete with 6 film holders. Three of my 4x5 lenses will cover the format, and it's much nicer on my back than the 8x10. It came with a 4x5 conversion back and I'm getting ready to finish a 5x7 back for it. So if you sell the camera, keep at least some of the lenses that will do double-duty with smaller formats.

[E. von Hoegh]

Consider a 4x5 reducing back as a quasi solution to your dilemma.

That's what I have for my 8x10. I also have a 4x5, for when I need a small hand-holdable camera. ;)

[Roger Thoms]

I'll echo some of Noah B's comment above. Fit the camera to the project. If you don't have the camera, the project won't happen. I ditched my 8x10 gear after about 3-4 years because it was expensive overkill for what I do. 4x5 will fit the bill most of the time, and I hated contact printing in silver-gelatin. Then, one day, I walked into a mom-and-pop photo store and saw a whole-plate kit for sale, complete with 6 film holders. Three of my 4x5 lenses will cover the format, and it's much nicer on my back than the 8x10. It came with a 4x5 conversion back and I'm getting ready to finish a 5x7 back for it. So if you sell the camera, keep at least some of the lenses that will do double-duty with smaller formats.

Hey that mom & pop store wasn't Kaufmann's Cameras by any chance?

Roger

[Brian C. Miller]

I work p/t as a photography teacher and whilst I used to get 'enough' freelancing work, it has declined significantly, I will lose my teaching position in September due to Govt cutbacks and will have to try and make a 'proper' go of the freelancing. My business 'voice' which is pretty quiet, says "sell the 8x10", but the other voice says, "you busted a gut to get the kit together-hang in there"

#1, you need a stable source of income.
#2, you are facing being laid off from your part-time teaching position.
#3, your freelancing work is diminishing.

Right now, you need to think about what will make money for you. Sell off the 8x10 gear if you must, but right now it is equipment that you can use. If you really are making money with film portraiture, then hang in there with the 8x10.

If you are serious with your business, then you need to run it as a business. What does your 8x10 do for you? Is your 8x10 lens sharp, or is it one of the "portraiture" lenses? For me, all of my soft lenses are for 8x10 format. If your 8x10 lens is sharp, like a Schniedenstockon Fujikkoragonar, then there's little to differentiate it from your 4x5. You need to figure out the business angle for that camera. Would the sitter pay extra just because you are using an 8x10?

You have to look at what your are going to do, and why people should come to you with their money. That's the real question for any business, no matter what it is. If you want to have a real business with that film equipment, then you have to show to the customer what film can do and what digital can't do.

[dimento]

Thus I have two 4x5's (field and a press), a 5x7, two 8x10's and an 11x14...:eek:

lol, more of an addict than me!

[dimento]

#1, you need a stable source of income.
#2, you are facing being laid off from your part-time teaching position.
#3, your freelancing work is diminishing.

Right now, you need to think about what will make money for you. Sell off the 8x10 gear if you must, but right now it is equipment that you can use. If you really are making money with film portraiture, then hang in there with the 8x10.

If you are serious with your business, then you need to run it as a business. What does your 8x10 do for you? Is your 8x10 lens sharp, or is it one of the "portraiture" lenses? For me, all of my soft lenses are for 8x10 format. If your 8x10 lens is sharp, like a Schniedenstockon Fujikkoragonar, then there's little to differentiate it from your 4x5. You need to figure out the business angle for that camera. Would the sitter pay extra just because you are using an 8x10?

You have to look at what your are going to do, and why people should come to you with their money. That's the real question for any business, no matter what it is. If you want to have a real business with that film equipment, then you have to show to the customer what film can do and what digital can't do.

excellent advice, thanks

[dimento]

What you have is already paid for. Waiting and watching will get you some holders, probably older wood holders for a decent price. Saving a bit will get extra film - and then you are in business again.

If it is a straight financial decision you are probably better off selling unless your vision is 8x10 and nothing else. You could shoot 4x5 with a reducing back tho it is cumbersome and some don't like doing that.

Good luck with the decision.

Thanks Dakotah, I guess I bought the 8x10 for absolute image quality, and I like working with the slower process. The dilemma is mostly financial, have some stock of 4x5 and 8x10, process my own B+W, struggling to afford colour processing and new film purchases at present. Main consideration for keeping 4x5 and ditching 8x10, is "shoot more for less" I spoke to a pro lab in London yesterday and they have drum scanned and printed 4x5 to 10feet by 6 feet, now I don't want to open that 4x5 vs 8x10 IQ debate, but perhaps at normal viewing distances 4x5 is enough, I'm thinking max print sizes of 4x5 feet nowhere near 10x6. I may keep the 10x8 as a 1-2 times a year 'project' camera.

thanks for your input, D

[Jonathan Barlow]

8x10 paper negatives are a lot of fun and can produce some very interesting images. You can make contact prints from paper negatives or scan them in a flatbed scanner for digital reproduction.

I'm also into 8x10 Polaroids. Although not inexpensive like paper negatives, just as much fun.

I use a Deardorff V8 and a Canham metal 8x10. I bought 6 brand new Fidelity 8x10 film holders on eBay for $50 apiece and 6 like-new 1920's wooden Kodak 8x10 holders at a flea market for $10 apiece.

[Jody_S]

Thanks Dakotah, I guess I bought the 8x10 for absolute image quality, and I like working with the slower process. The dilemma is mostly financial, have some stock of 4x5 and 8x10, process my own B+W, struggling to afford colour processing and new film purchases at present. Main consideration for keeping 4x5 and ditching 8x10, is "shoot more for less" I spoke to a pro lab in London yesterday and they have drum scanned and printed 4x5 to 10feet by 6 feet, now I don't want to open that 4x5 vs 8x10 IQ debate, but perhaps at normal viewing distances 4x5 is enough, I'm thinking max print sizes of 4x5 feet nowhere near 10x6. I may keep the 10x8 as a 1-2 times a year 'project' camera.

thanks for your input, D

The main reason I'm shooting 8x10 at the moment instead of 4x5 is, in fact, cost. X-ray film in 8x10 is cheaper than 4x5 B&W.

[tenderobject]

I'm also in your shoes a few months ago but in different angle. I just sold my favourite camera kit just to fund my jump on 8x10. My vision changed last year when i started contact printing my 4x5 negs and i started with alt process again so basically it would be better for me to shoot on a bigger format. So i decided to sell my leica gear to fund 8x10. Hopefully this move is better. I had a lot of vision with bigger format i can't wait to get m first8x10! Goodluck to you!

[dimento]

Thanks for all the replies, advice and personal insight. After weighing things up I have decided to stick with 8x10 and decide whether to use on a project by project basis, according to cost and other factors like location. Slightly off-topic, but has anyone found a cheap solution for transporting a cambo scx/sc or legend 8x10? I have looked at extra large rolling suitcases, storage boxes etc, but all the ready made solutions appear to be just a fraction too small in one or other dimension. I can't afford something like a huge peli case, so maybe some other solution (preferably something that can be bought in this part of the world (Europe))

thanks
D

[Drew Bedo]

In retrospec, and for what its worth: I now regret ever selling-off every camera I've ever parted with.