Photographing women - need your advice

[megapickle1]

Well, I have taken some photographs of a lady and - like the most women - she doesn´t like her appearence. I have to admit that she is a bit fat. And she wants to look slim in the pictures. Oh boy. I know the is a PS feature that makes everything slim, long or fat but I´m not really experienced with PS and I don´t want to use it.
Using a Sinar camera with many facilities for tilt and shift would it be possible to make her slim optically using side tilt of the rear standard. What do you think? Do you know a better way to get fatty slim?

Thank you in advance for your advice.
George

[Vaughn]

In the words (paraphrased) of Peter Britt, the 1800's photographer of Jacksonville, Oregon, upon hearing such a complaint from a customer, "Madam, if you wish a photograph of a beautiful face, you shall have to bring one."

Ah, the joy of being the only photographer in the region! He also took the first photographs of Crater Lake (wet plate), and was "by turns, miner, mule train packer, bee-keeper, financier, property magnate, government meteorologist, first vintner in the Oregon Territory and a father of the region's fruit industry."

[Dennis]

You can use a shorter lens and shoot from above a bit so that the perspective enlarges her eyes. You can also use a smaller light source so the light falls off her body. You can tell her you like to photograph people dressed in plain black.
Dennis

[Mark Sawyer]

Could you concentrate on the head and shoulders, leaving the body out of the equation entirely?

[DrTang]

let shadows be your friend

[E. von Hoegh]

Well, I have taken some photographs of a lady and - like the most women - she doesn´t like her appearence. I have to admit that she is a bit fat. And she wants to look slim in the pictures. Oh boy. I know the is a PS feature that makes everything slim, long or fat but I´m not really experienced with PS and I don´t want to use it.
Using a Sinar camera with many facilities for tilt and shift would it be possible to make her slim optically using side tilt of the rear standard. What do you think? Do you know a better way to get fatty slim?
Thank you in advance for your advice.
George

Proper diet and daily physical activity.

[John Kasaian]

Use skinny film?

Or maybe use an open, moderate wide lens to accentuate the pretty parts and let the rest of her svelte away into infinity?

Flattering clothes and background may help.

Of course, I'm so fat they had to use an aerial camera just so I could be in my high school class photo:rolleyes:

[jp]

Thin DOF and clothes that don't contrast with the background. I would think having her provide some photos of her she really likes would be helpful, not to copycat, but to understand her aesthetic interests and do one better.

Mortensen's got a whole checklist of things that make models look thinner or thicker in his "The Model" book. Hairstyles, jewelry, lighting all have substantial impact on how the viewer's eyes look at the portrait and notice shapes (such as body shape).

[Nathan Potter]

To paraphrase; you are in a megapickle. Less than physically perfect women don't want to be reminded of the fact. Kind words can help but it takes a deft touch to allay disappointment.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Jody_S]

No, far as I know there is no realistic Photoshop or in-camera process to 'make a fat lady look slim'. In fact, there are websites with cult-like followings posting the disasters that ensue when artistic directors order their photographers and graphic artists to do just that: search for "photoshop disasters".

On a personal note, last week-end I had the privilege of photographing 2 sisters-in-law, each with a newborn baby. The skinny one waited til I was in the other room, took the camera (in front of my wife), looked over my pics, and deleted every single pic in which she appeared. Apparently, she "looks like a cow". The fatter s-i-l didn't say anything, she waited until I had done my stuff and sent the edited photos to my wife (a graphic artist), who turned them into a beautiful invitation to the christening of their baby. Yes, she looks a little fat in the photo we used, but... she gave birth just 6 weeks ago, and the baby looks wonderful. The one photo the skinny one left on the camera was of the other baby only, no mother, and the baby was screaming and throwing a tantrum, basically looks like a wrinkled little hellion. There's no moral to this story, just an observation that some women are so vain that nothing else matters, and unless you're a wizard, you won't make them happy. Others are more interested in the subtext of the photo, in meanings and memories.

My wife is friends with the 2nd, fatter sister-in-law. The other one, well, we won't be going back for any more photo shoots. No one deletes photos off my camera without my permission, or should I say no one will ever get a 2nd chance to do so.

[cowanw]

In the darkroom you can tilt your print and stretch out a face.

[SergeiR]

Thin DOF and clothes that don't contrast with the background. I would think having her provide some photos of her she really likes would be helpful, not to copycat, but to understand her aesthetic interests and do one better.

Mortensen's got a whole checklist of things that make models look thinner or thicker in his "The Model" book. Hairstyles, jewelry, lighting all have substantial impact on how the viewer's eyes look at the portrait and notice shapes (such as body shape).


Yup. That book and good lighting. And angles..

However if there is too much of... good life... then you got to use props to block it. And if its not an option.. well.. thats about it. There is no magic.

[SergeiR]

In the darkroom you can tilt your print and stretch out a face.

Rear standard movements also could be used for projection control.

[lenser]

Five things for sure, long sleeves to hide the flesh of the arms (skinny or fat, the arms attract attention away from the face), long, even plunging neck lines to lengthen the effect of the face (unless there is a problem with rolls of fat on the neck and then a turtleneck with long chains works wonders), dark clothing to again draw attention to the face, especially against medium to dark backgrounds, never high key except in extreme close ups, and finally study the work of George Hurrell who was the absolute master of highlight and shadow on the face and body. Using his glamor lighting techniques and perhaps increasing the contrast ratio in your lighting will do wonders. As in absolutely all portraiture, concentrate on the eyes for what they command and communicate.

[megapickle1]

Thank you all for your kind and sometimes humorous words.

It´s a pity but I´m not allowed to show the pictures. The lady was in black (leather corset) and sometimes without. She wanted to be photographed as a mean dominatrix with boots, whips, chains and so on. Now you can imagine the scenery. It seems I´m in trouble now and I hope she will not beat me up with her tools.

There is no cure in lighting for I gave my very best, a lot of drama and plenty of shadows (to hide the not perfect parts). The backdrop was dark red burgundy and in b/w it comes as a very dark grey and I took the photos from a very low point to stretch her figure. And there is not enough time to loose 30 lbs because the next appointment will be in 4 weeks. So what should I do with that baroque lady. Is there anyone who can confirm my theory with tilting the back standard to cause distortion.

I like her, she is a very nice person and we have a lot of fun during the photo sessions. (No, not that kind of fun!) I want her to be content with the photographs and for me to get more experienced with problematic figures.

George

[sun of sand]

you need a makeup artist
where you see fat or thick apply black and accentuate/create the thin with white
same goes with clothing and lighting

I think i'd be completely upfront about it. she seems to be
If that is what you want this is what you have to try
I wouldn't try "hiding" it from her people aren't that dumb
you start turning the lights off

[lenser]

Seriously, would this session have been like Rosie O'Donnell in "Exit to Eden"?

Also, many years ago, 'Playboy' did a one time pictorial (too bad they haven't done several) of heavy set women, both nude and semi-nude women. They were stunning images and celebrated the size of the woman in very sensual visual terms. Maybe you can find those on line somewhere and use them as guides.

[megapickle1]

Hallo lenser,
not like Rosie O´Donnel. Sorry.
George

[Alan Gales]

Normally I would say scan the negative and photoshop it like they do actresses. Since you can't do that, I agree with an earlier post and just do a head and shoulder shot. Of course she will probably still complain that her face looks too fat.

[Leszek Vogt]

Wow, that's a tough call. I'll stick to nature...no moose or griz will ever object how they appear....

Les

[Alan Gales]

Wow, that's a tough call. I'll stick to nature...no moose or griz will ever object how they appear....

Les

You better hope that a griz doesn't object to how it appears. Of course I wouldn't want to piss off a moose either. ;)

[Peter De Smidt]

To sum up: using pose, camera position, and lighting can make a person look significantly slimmer in a picture than they are in real life. Whether that will be enough for her to like the picture is an open question.

Recently, a friend of mine wanted a quick portrait done for use on the web. I've attached the result. I was quite happy with it. I did a fair amount of retouching, but my sense of the picture was that it was a good representation. He didn't like it at all and said: "When I looked at it, I asked, "Who's that old guy? Look at all those wrinkles! I want to look like Johnny Depp!" I put it to you that it was unlikely that I could produce a picture of him with any kind of fidelity that would've pleased him.

[Kirk Gittings]

Well, I have taken some photographs of a lady and - like the most women - she doesn´t like her appearence.

You have my deepest, sincerest sympathies...............that's one of the main reasons I shoot architecture.

[E. von Hoegh]

To sum up: using pose, camera position, and lighting can make a person look significantly slimmer in a picture than they are in real life. Whether that will be enough for her to like the picture is an open question.

Recently, a friend of mine wanted a quick portrait done for use on the web. I've attached the result. I was quite happy with it. I did a fair amount of retouching, but my sense of the picture was that it was a good representation. He didn't like it at all and said: "When I looked at it, I asked, "Who's that old guy? Look at all those wrinkles! I want to look like Johnny Depp!" I put it to you that it was unlikely that I could produce a picture of him with any kind of fidelity that would've pleased him.

What it comes down to, is that some people have a self-image that is, or borders upon, the delusional. They can't bear to be reminded of the reality. It's sad.

[sun of sand]

The lady was in black (leather corset) and sometimes without. She wanted to be photographed as a mean dominatrix with boots, whips, chains and so on



where is that mouth breather emoticon

[lenser]

Keep in mind one other highly important factor in client perception. NO ONE ever sees themselves in daily life the way that they do in a portrait. We only see ourselves in mirrors, reversed from left to right, while a portrait is accurate orientation. Since no face is symmetrical, and some have one side seriously heavier than the other, we appear to ourselves to be totally out of balance to what we are used to seeing.

In my portrait studio days, we kept a small mirror in the sales room for proof presentations. If a client expressed the thought that the images didn't look like herself, holding the proof up to the mirror and having them view it that way while discussing the symmetry issue often resolved all concerns at a glance. The usual reaction if a friend came along was for the friend to love the portraits that the client was not so comfortable with. To the friend, everything was oriented normally.

Since women spend vastly more time at a mirror while completing daily hair and make up sessions plus touch ups through the day, it stands to reason that they fall into this frame of mind much more than men due to simple awareness. They are rightly far more attuned to what their mirror image looks like and therefore have a greater awareness of the difference when they see the portrait.

Could be that your client will never be able to be pleased because of this appearance/balance/symmetry perception factor.

[Vaughn]

Single transfer carbon prints -- already reversed!

[megapickle1]

You have my deepest, sincerest sympathies...............that's one of the main reasons I shoot architecture.

Thank you Kirk!
George

[Graham Patterson]

I suppose there is always an anamorphic lens. That would give you a horizontal squeeze.

It is very hard to argue with people who just 'know' what is true about themselves. They really cannot see what other people see, and won't accept things that do not fit their view of themselves. Even if you could reach their ideal with a photograph it might look like a caricature to everyone else.

I tend to photograph landscapes - people have opinions about it, but by and large the landscape itself is not self-aware 8-)

[Brian C. Miller]

Recently, a friend of mine wanted a quick portrait done for use on the web. I've attached the result. I was quite happy with it. I did a fair amount of retouching, but my sense of the picture was that it was a good representation. He didn't like it at all and said: "When I looked at it, I asked, "Who's that old guy? Look at all those wrinkles! I want to look like Johnny Depp!" I put it to you that it was unlikely that I could produce a picture of him with any kind of fidelity that would've pleased him.

He wants that? OK, do a Google search for Johnny Depp and look at the way the celebrity photographers show him.

#1: Wear a hat, at a slight angle. Your friend has a very high forehead.
#2: Don't smile, just relax.
#3: Wear a plain shirt, perferably black, not plaid!
#4: Not so much light in back.
#5: Bring in a makeup artist.
#6: Tell him that if he wants to look like Johnny Depp, then he doesn't get to look like himself.

[Peter De Smidt]

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae37/peterdesmidt/kent_3_zps03ae15f2.jpg

Yes, it was a joke (and a total hack job). He thought it was funny.

[cowanw]

Close up bits and bobs will hide the total picture.
Drapes and pillars and posts or corners of doorways along the length of her to reveal and hide.
Tilting the back of the camera will bring something closer and bigger and something else smaller; from low down you could have large legs and butt and small head. Composing from head side down might be more appealing.
Finally, retouching ala Horst's Mainbocher corset.

[Tobias Key]

What I have done in the past is to distort the photo very slightly by changing the image size and adding about 5% to the vertical pixels whilst leaving the horizontal the same, it makes a very subtle difference. Then I've done a bit of slimming here and there with the liquify tool in photoshop, again nothing too drastic. Think in you mind that you want her to look as if she's lost 7 or 8 kilos and maybe spent a week at the spa, not that you want to totally transform her. If I've been commissioned to shoot family photos I'll often do this to the mother if she needs it, but (and this is the real trick) I never tell her she's been retouched and make it subtle enough that she can't really tell. Really helps with the sell.

[megapickle1]

Close up bits and bobs will hide the total picture.
Drapes and pillars and posts or corners of doorways along the length of her to reveal and hide.
Tilting the back of the camera will bring something closer and bigger and something else smaller; from low down you could have large legs and butt and small head. Composing from head side down might be more appealing.
Finally, retouching ala Horst's Mainbocher corset.

Hi, cowanw! What I have intended is to tilt the camera back horizontally. The distortion has to be like a squeezing, but I´m not sure it would work.

George

[Peter De Smidt]

You can also stretch things with traditional printing, using a tilt easel and a tilting negative stage. This type of thing can get really unnatural quickly.

[megapickle1]

Hallo Folks,

I have to state here, I have no studio and no darkroom to work in. I do all my indoor photographs in my home. In rooms of max. 20 square yards full of antique furniture (too heavy for moving them). There is not a plenty of space to place the lights and the hight of the rooms is about 8 ft. My table-tops were made on a 5 square yard spot (a carpet in my living room) with all lightstands, backdrop and camera.

Rental studios are more expensive than top models here in Munich. Most of them have any facilities like restrooms or make up artists. And I´m not a member of a billionairs club. Being a hard working man of 65 I have no daytime opportunities for taking photographs in studios.

I hope this will help to understand my photographic situation and position.

George

[Peter De Smidt]

Sinar's book on portrait photography talks about using camera movements for various effects in portraiture. Maybe your library has a copy.

[cowanw]

I am thinking a very long black leather(to go with the theme) coat or some other dark length ways coat or drape, that she can expose parts of her and her outfit length ways and that will merge into a black background

[Drew Bedo]

Doesn't some of this fall into the nitch of Boudoir Photography? I mean posing the subject to minimize her unattractive features and emphasize her positive features.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Very dark Shadows are your best friend. Just cover one half of here with it!

Cheers Armin

[swmcl]

I think someone suggested skinny film but seriously I think what is needed is a 'thin' negative is it not? :-)

[Leszek Vogt]

Indeed, this is rather intriguing challenge and perhaps it should be thought in our colleges - univ. I'd probably just photo her ear with some nice earring :) and call it a day. Maybe fire in the studio would help > smoke and mirrors ? Maybe the expectations are not lined up with reality.

Les

[megapickle1]

Hallo All,

after reading all the comments I´ll give my theory a chance. As a film holder has two sides, Í´ll shoot one with tilt an one without. I´ll try some better posings and unusual camera positions too. Well in four weeks she comes rolling over me, he he.
George

[Misbah]

this is why i don't take pictures of my girlfriends anymore... they were never happy!!

prefer street, and landscapes.... !

good luck!

[john borrelli]

Reading through this good advice, I can't help but think this would be the perfect thread for one Frank Petronio!

[megapickle1]

Reading through this good advice, I can't help but think this would be the perfect thread for one Frank Petronio!

Yes John! I know what Frank would suggest. "Do not photograph her, look for a cute and well shaped model."

George

[Thom Bennett]

This is second-hand hearsay so take it with a grain of salt: A well-known photographer of young, mostly nude women came to town to conduct a workshop about photographing any subject and "bringing out the beauty in them." The local coordinator found a couple of local models who are not beautiful in the traditional, mass-market sense of the word but certainly willing to take their clothes off. When the photographer showed up he went ballistic because they did not look like the women he is known for photographing. So glad I didn't drop $1200 on that workshop. As Seinfeld's Dad says, "Cheap fabric, and dim lighting. That's how you move merchandise."

[megapickle1]

Well, only one and a half our, then she will show up. I´m a little bit scared.:) But I´ll survive.:rolleyes:

George