View Full Version : 4x5 camera and 6x17 film back
I guess this is never ending story. So I will not ask for the best camera out there, I think best one is yet to be made and is only still in someone's head instead of production.
So, after some thought I have decided to try out 4x5 cameras on top of millions of formats I am already practising at the moment. But, of course, as being on a tight budget I was hoping to buy a 4x5 camera (used ) and a back for 6x17. At the moment I already have dedicated 6x17 camera, but will have to sell if I want to buy 4x5. (just cant have it all). I really love 6x17 format and would like to keep using it on a 4x5 camera as well. There seems to be a lot written about this combo even on this forum, yet still I don`t know what to do.
1. How is actually possible to get 6x17 format from a 4x5 camera. 4x5 is much smaller then 6x17. I know it is possible, with some limitations. Are they that bad. I have Schneider 90XL and Nikor 210W. I assume 90XL would be OK, but 210 not. I am right. I mainly use 90 anyway, so that is juts fine by me, maybe I would buy 150 in future, depends.
2. Which camera. Shen-hao, Toyo, Wista, ...I would probably go for second hand. What are my options. Suggestions are welcome. Not monorail.
3. Worst case I have to go for 5x7 camera, how difficult is to use 4x5 film on those cameras. I would prefer to stay at 4x5 the go for 5x7, just because I love 6x17.
4. What is mayor difference/benefit between a folding and non-folding cameras.
5. Which 6x17 (non motorised is just fine) except Da-yi and ShenHao are there and on which cameras can they be used.
Any help advise will be welcome.
richardman
14-Mar-2013, 02:24
The 6x17 back has an extension, effectively moving the film plane back. For this reason, you can't go longer than 150mm or thereabout. I started out with a Shenhao 617 myself and just purchased a Crown. I will be getting a Chamonix F1 when $$ is available, and at that point, I may have to look at similar decision. OTOH, I think it makes sense to have two cameras. The SH 617 is only about 3 lbs and let you shoot longer than 150mm. Some of my favorite 617 are from my 210mm and even 300mm lens.
For my use, I want the reasonably priced lightest weight camera and the Chamonix F1 seems perfect. The new asymmetrical tilt should make Scheimpflug a piece of cake (ha ha).
There another camera designed for 6x17 use, but it's very, very expensive. Ebony makes a non-folding view camera that comes with a Horseman 617 back. It has 65-365mm of extension (I think those numbers are right. They're at least close). According to Ebony, the Horseman back is the only one the camera will take. Badger Graphic Sales here in Wisconsin imports from Ebony for the U.S.- I know that there are some importers in Great Britain as well, and I'm sure in other parts of Europe. The bad news is that the mahogany model lists for $8,900 (again, with the Horseman 617 back). The Ebony site also shows an ebony model, but Badger Graphics doesn't show it. It would likely cost more. Ebony's cameras are beautifully designed and built. Their non-folding designs allow for greater movements on the front standard and easy set up. I was concerned about how well protected a non-folding camera would be in a pack (I have an Ebony 45SU), but with the front and back plates in place and the standards withdrawn (unextended), it's really pretty well protected.
I like panoramic formats, as well, but I really want view camera movements for most of my photography. The Ebony seems like the ideal solution to me, but the cost is prohibitive. I didn't get the impression that you had an unlimited budget either, but I thought that I'd at least point out that this camera exists. And why should I be the only one who lusts for things I can't have?
richardman
14-Mar-2013, 16:00
kgm, the Shenhao 617 is a view camera with 617 "native" back. Check it out if you are interested. There are a few threads on the LFF as well. The upshot is that it's a fine camera for what it does.
Thank Richards for pointing me to Ebony. Site says: "Accepts Linhof-type lensboards and Horseman 617 roll film holders (only)". But still price wise is way over my budget. I was hoping to not spend more then 1500, considering I already have the lenses, it is a resonalbe number, I hope.
Thing is I would like to buy 4x5 with aditional 617 back, not just a 617 camera, unless I can attach 4x5 back to a 617 camera, but that I have never heard or seen. There is a few 4x5 cameras listed on eB??, but which one will also be good for 617. If I was just after 4x5, my life would be much easier, adding 617 option and I am lost.
I am pretty sure, someone out there is using 617 on 4x5 camera. What is you opinion.
richardman
15-Mar-2013, 04:58
Igore, kgm had some slightly incorrect info. Please read carefully:
- There ARE "inexpensive" view camera with 617 back. The Shenhao 617 is one. It has all the movements, the same as any view camera for that price (~$1500-$1600). You can use lens from ~80mm-320mm.
- You can also buy a 5x7 and get 617 back. The weight is much heavier of course.
- You can use a 4x5 camera, but then the 617 back has a back bellow extension. The lens choice is limited up to 150mm.
Option 3 is what I would like. Despite the fact that I can only go as far as 150mm, is that the only downside to it. I can live with that.
In that case is Wista DX 4x5, Wista SP, Maybe Ebony RW 45 Ti, good choice. They are now listed on eBXX. So one of those cameras and I would need on top of that DaYi or similar 617 camera back. Does DaYi camera back fit to all of those cameras or are there any differences that I need to know.
Joseph Dickerson
15-Mar-2013, 11:34
Igore,
I just checked my Sinar F1 with the Shen Hao Art Panorama 6x17 back and with my 180mm Caltar there is just the slightest hint of vignetting at the extreme ends of the frame. With my 210 Sironar S the vignetting is much more noticeable. I think it's still useable, maybe 6x14cm or so of image width. At least a bit bigger than a 6x12cm back.
On the wide angle end I can use my 90mm but only with a recessed board due to the offset of the ground glass. No room for movements on the Sinar though, a Shen Hao or Chamonix camera might be better. No way will my 75mm focus so for my camera and lens combination the useful range is 90-180mm with 210 useable in a pinch. Definitely worth it in my opinion.
JD
The Shen Hao 617 does look like a great value. It looks like it would be less than half the price of the Ebony 617 after buying a Horseman roll film holder. Horseman also makes 6x17 cameras with some rise and fall, but not the full movements of a view camera. And they are also much more expensive than the Shen Hao.
richardman
15-Mar-2013, 20:24
Last I checked, an Ebony 617 is over $9000!!!! The Shenhao is $1600 :-)
The Deardorf Special, a 4x5/5x7 camera, is an option. I have used one for both 4x5 and 5x7, and liked it. I do not know enough about 6x17 backs to know how adaptable they are to the Deardorf.
Vaughn
The way I see it this is just a regular 5x7 camera with reducing back for 4x5, right?
Joseph Dickerson
So if I got it right, even though I can use 90-180(cca), I will still be limited buy the movements, even within this range. If that is right, I am limiting my self quite a lot.
The more I think, more I am leaning toward 5x7 cameras with 4x5 back. In that case I could use both 4x5 and 617 format in full range without any limitations. Damn this is hard.
Guess my optimum camera would be 4inch x 17 cm, or 4x7 inch, to cover it all. How come nobody thought of that format, it would be ideal for me.
Vaughn
The way I see it this is just a regular 5x7 camera with reducing back for 4x5, right?
Joseph Dickerson
So if I got it right, even though I can use 90-180(cca), I will still be limited buy the movements, even within this range. If that is right, I am limiting my self quite a lot.
The more I think, more I am leaning toward 5x7 cameras with 4x5 back. In that case I could use both 4x5 and 617 format in full range without any limitations. Damn this is hard.
Guess my optimum camera would be 4inch x 17 cm, or 4x7 inch, to cover it all. How come nobody thought of that format, it would be ideal for me.
dave_whatever
16-Mar-2013, 01:52
If you want to use a 90mm with a 6x17 back youve got to choose the camera carefully. Most field cameras of a traditonal design won't close down the bellows close enough to get infinity let alone any movelemnts, when you've taken into account the 6x17 back extnds the film plane about 40-45mm behind the camera. So you really need a camera with a minimum bellows extension of 45mm or less, assuming you don't want to use a recessed panel (they are a pain).
Any of the chamonix 4x5 models will work, or a walker XL, ebony RSW or SW, shenhao TFC, something like that.
anglophone1
16-Mar-2013, 04:20
Anyone know if a 617 back will work ok with a Technika?
i have 75, 90 on recessed boards, 150, 240, 360 lenses.
Joseph Dickerson
16-Mar-2013, 09:22
Igore,
Your movements will be limited if you use a standard bellows, I think a bag bellows will solve the problem. However, I have not tested this combination yet so I don't know for sure if the recessed ground glass (and film back) will vignette with the bag bellows, I'll check it later today and let you know.
It's something I want to know too.
Addendum:
Just took the camera out in the drive way and the bag bellows works great. Still pretty much limited to 90-180mm (didn't try the 210) but there is no vignetting due to the recessed ground glass that I could detect. The bag bellows (Sinar) is plenty long enough to focus with the 180, and allows plenty of movements even with the 90 so I think it's the way to go.
I'm not sure on the length of the Shen Hao or Chamonix bag bellows but I imagine they would be adequately long to focus a 180 (or 150) reasonably close if you wind up going that way.
JD
Lachlan 717
16-Mar-2013, 13:00
I shoot 72-360mm on my Shen Hao 617. No bag needed, not recessed boards.
IMO, you massively compromise the panoramic format if you try to make a 4x5 a "Jack-of-all-trades" camera. Like using a screwdriver as a chisel - it'll kinda work, but why would you if you can use a chisel?
YMMV.
Carsten Wolff
16-Mar-2013, 14:39
This is just my experience, and there are of course many ways to skin a cat, but the best LF camera investment I ever made was probably buying an old Arca-Swiss 5x7 for $500. It had a 4x5" reduction back, so I bought and modified a cheap 5x7 Plaubel back for it and then also made a 6x17 adapter for my Canham 617 back. Far more flexible than a tarted-up 4x5. I use 75 to 450mm lenses with it. the only lens on a recessed board is the 75mm, as the camera came with pleaded leather W/A bellows already. A joy to use in any format and pretty cheap. Finding one of these cameras is another matter though :)
But I believe that you need to add the 6x17 back for the Shenhao. The Ebony comes with the Horseman 6x17 back, which no doubt adds greatly to the cost of the Ebony. Badger Graphics lists the Ebony for under $9,000, and the Horseman back for over $3,000. I understand that there are far less expensive 6x17 backs available, so it should be possible to get the Shenhao and one of the cheaper backs for under $3,000.
drew.saunders
18-Mar-2013, 11:00
Check with Canham to confirm, but this camera: http://www.canhamcameras.com/4x5and5x7.htm is both a 4x5 and 5x7 camera, so should work with their 6x17 back: http://www.canhamcameras.com/Roll%20film%20back.html
The camera is $3100 in 4x5 form and $3200 in 5x7 form from Badger Graphic and the back is $1350. That will get you 4x5 and 6x17 (and the option for 5x7 later for $570).
dave_whatever
18-Mar-2013, 11:09
But I believe that you need to add the 6x17 back for the Shenhao.
I think they come with a back.
http://www.bhcamera.us/shenhao-tfc617.php
Just what I was afraid, that I will have to move to 5x7, with all5x7 to 4x5 adapters ...it makes system much more expencive. Also 5x7 are much harded to run by then 4x5. There is so much more 4x5 out there for sale second hand.
On the other hand I have some strange ideas in my head, that I would buy second hand wood 4x5 and try to modify its back to be able to get 617 without those 4 cm. In most cameras I see graflock is already some 1 to 2cm away from actual body, so if I could make custom back to add 617 back to the body without those 1 to 2 cm lose, then those 4cm I loose on 617 back will now only be half that, making focusing much easier. Thing is then, will I get whole image, becauise back would be much closer now,.... hmmm.....What to do.
Dont thinking about extra expencive ones, this one, I like : http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/045F1.html, and price is OK also.
Somehting that just crossed my mind, is it possible to attach 4x5 back to a 617 camera. As far as I know 617 cameras usually use different locks, right ?
Lachlan 717
18-Mar-2013, 13:02
I don't know how you're going to (re)gain the 40mm. It seems to me to be a physical requirement based on the roll film holder's depth. I guess that you could thin down the rear standard's thickness; however, I feel that this will reduce stability/strength.
Sometimes things are as they are because they need to be, and no amount of trying will change this…
As for attaching a 4x5 to a 6x17, you will really struggle with this, given a) lack of 6x17 cameras with interchangeable bellows and b) the physical limitation of having to expand the 6cm side to a minimum of 4 inches (minimum if you only want to shoot landscape format).
FWIW, I find taking both a panoramic camera and a "regular" format camera together a somewhat worthless pursuit. I feel that I compromise my ability to focus on one format, and that my images therefore suffer. I can only imagine how this image quality would drop further if I had to deal with a compromised camera as well. Again, YMMV.
richardman
19-Mar-2013, 00:20
But I believe that you need to add the 6x17 back for the Shenhao. The Ebony comes with the Horseman 6x17 back, which no doubt adds greatly to the cost of the Ebony. Badger Graphics lists the Ebony for under $9,000, and the Horseman back for over $3,000. I understand that there are far less expensive 6x17 backs available, so it should be possible to get the Shenhao and one of the cheaper backs for under $3,000.
kgm, PLEASE. There are people, such as myself, that own the Shenhao 617, not a matter of belief. The Shenhao comes with a 617, complete for ~$1600. One may argue whether it's as good as a Horseman back, but it's included. Please check for data before keep repeating information that is false.
BTW Richard. How are you satisfied with your ShenHao. Which particular 617 model do you have, would you buy it again. Is there something that you miss, compared to some other models. Shen Hao`s are much cheaper compared to some other models, is quality also cheaper. because from the photos they look just fine to me.
richardman
19-Mar-2013, 01:41
The Shenhao is my first view camera, and I have not used much movement except rise. I like it a lot though and I just ordered a Chamonix 4x5 F1. The camera is small and light (~3 lbs) and a pack with 4 lens and a bunch of film is under 15 lbs and I have hiked with that in the high desert. The Chinese models are generally much cheaper but from what I heard, they are quite good quality wise, especially for the price. i.e. if you have $$$, get the Ebony or whatever, but lots of pro photogs use the Chinese models as well. The Shenhao 617 (and the Chamonix 4x5) are also among the lightest cameras in their respective sizes.
I went this route, looking for a way to use shorter and longer lenses than provided for the Fuji GX617, and the ability to shift and eventually tilt a bit.
I bought a Meopta Magnola (a Czech 5x7 Linhof Technika), to which a previous owner had added an international back, I think from Cambo, which I have abused to take either Chinese or Canham 6x17 backs. It is heavy and very solid, Magnolas have three screws where Linhof thinks two to be sufficient. Movements are limited, as it is a folding camera, but it takes 90 to 600 lenses. One problem is the limited diameter of the bellows front end, which makes it necessary to mount the rear part of large diameter lenses like the 600mm Nikkor from the back. The price to pay for ignorance and tightfistedness.
It should be possible to do the same to a Linhof Technika, which is more common, if you are willing to mistreat such a venerable camera. Linhofs have more bellows extension, and a special device for focusing with wide-angle lenses. Hunting around in the usual places, you could probable get the parts for a "bitsa" for under 1000,-- Euro.
Christoph
Ok, I have made up my mind. I am going for the 4x5 with 617 back. I have already tracked down one 617 used back, hope I can get a good price on it. Camera wise I am still thinking on where to go.
Since used a more or less hard to find, at lest any good ones, I kinda nerrowed it down to this three, all new:
Chamonix F1
Shen Hao HZX45-IIA
Shen Hao PTB45-B
I have made up my mind, so don`t try to convince me otherwise, it was hard to get to here. But I would be glad if you could give me some guidence about this three cameras. Bear in mind I don`t have a lot of money so have to stay within my budget. So if you are thinking of offering me or pointing me to some 9000$ cameras, please dont I can only look at them. I am also open to offers if you have some for sale.
richardman
20-Mar-2013, 02:12
FWIW, as I said, there's a Chamonix F1 on a plane right now coming to me :-) It seems to be better spec than the Shenhao, IMO :-) Although I think the SH is quite nice too. Don't think you can go wrong either case. With the F1, it *may be* easier to use the tilt w/ Scheimpflug effect, but I think the SH is priced lower.
Let me know when you get it, and please shere your thoughts with us/me.
Let me know when you get it, and please shere your thoughts with us/me.
Why not buy both! That's what I'm gearing up to do. There are times when I need tilt/shift to get the composition the way I want it and then there are times when I need wide angle to show how dramatic a scene is. I figured out that my Expedition 8 backpack is roughly the same size as a Pelican 1510 case so that I could configure to carry my Fuji GX617 camera with 105mm lens and also carry a Wista 45SP with SA 75mm and APO 120mm lenses, plus film, film holders, a light meter, cable release and filters. Altogether, including my tripod and cross member (which allows me to shoot the same composition in two formats at once) that I'm at about 28-30 pounds of gear. Not bad consider what I'm carrying. My tripod is a Gitzo 3540 XLS so it's fairly light compared to the cameras. Both cameras fit in my backpack while the tripod fits nicely in a carrying case I have, which allows me to carry the tripod over my chest to help balance out the weight when hiking.
This even includes my Fuji X20 for taking fun shots while I'm out :-). The 617 back on 5x7 can work but personally for me, it's just more fun and advantageous having two cameras, set up for what they do best, one shooting wide medium format and the other shooting 4x5. At least this way I can also shoot in both color and black and white at the same time without having to re-work or re-tool my gear.
I have a 5X7 Technika and plan sometimes in the future to put a 6X17 back on it. I accept suggestions to fix the back to the camera.
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