PDA

View Full Version : Jobo 3010 without Jobo Machine ?



Ken Lee
19-May-2004, 09:46
If you want to use a Jobo Expert Drum but don't want to spend thousands for something to rotate the drum, are there other workable options ?

I tried a 2500 series drum a few years back, and sold it, because it was a pain to load, and rotation by hand resulted in uneven development near the edges, and fatigue.

wfwhitaker
19-May-2004, 10:13
Jobo makes an inexpensive manual roller base. Mine was about $25 a couple of years ago. I find that it works fine with my 3005 Expert drum. Others will argue, YMMV, etc., etc., but it works for me.

Eric Woodbury
19-May-2004, 10:13
I use a 3000 series drum with a motor base that I built. It has a strong motor in it and a couple of gears and a little notched belt so that it can turn much liquid at a slow speed. It works great. Others use Beseler or Unicolor bases, but I have never tried those.

I didn't want the Jobo thing because they were expensive and big and I heard the motors were weak.

Michael Kadillak
19-May-2004, 11:28
You can get a like new JOBO with a lift for between $500 and $700 in the used market which is less than half the cost of the equipment new. I see a number of them regularly auctioned.

Yes, clearly you can rotate the drum by hand but I would like to have someone tell me in manual mode how you rotate the drum while you are pouring in the chemistry?

When you consider that the JOBO units are precision machines with a full compliment of world class support (yes they do answer the phone in person and take the time to talk to you about your objectives) and will last a lifetime, why settle for anything less than optimal?

Cheers!

Michael E. Gordon
19-May-2004, 12:52
I'm using a Jobo 3010 on a Chromega base ($12 on ebay!) with Rollo Pyro. Since the Chromega is unidirectional, I flip the drum every 30 seconds. I dont worry about pour time (in or out; only takes a few seconds). I have been getting remarkable results since day one. Not one bad neg.

I wouldn't worry about the Jobo processor until you have free money and want the luxury.

Eric Woodbury
19-May-2004, 13:12
Michael, You can make a 90 degree funnel with a plastic funnel, pvc pipe, and glue. Form the pipe by warming it in the oven on low. Freeze it with wet rag. With this you can add liquid while the drum is rotating.

CXC
19-May-2004, 13:19
Or, like me, you can pick up a used Unicolor drum and roller motor for under $50 total, from ePay. I got a 16x20 drum for $20, can't beat that.

Michael Kadillak
19-May-2004, 13:29
Fabulous guys. Ingenuity has never been lacking by this group and as long as it works to accomplish the stated objective, go for it with all of the gusto you have.

Onward and upward!

Jim Galli
19-May-2004, 13:34
FWIW I'll add; started with a Uniroller motor base with my 3005 and 3010 tanks. Really more work than that motor wants to do. After a few days one of the rubber "tires" gave up. The tank is continually walking one way or the other off of the roller so it gets off center and tips over. Non-multi-directional. Still, the results were what I'd hoped for after the large investment just for the tanks. So I bought one of the near minty etc etc CPA machines on Ebay. $650 more bucks. NOW i'm in over a grand! Michael, you must be on the payroll. The thing is cheeseball. I'm completely underwhelmed by my $650 investment. I don't see $200 bucks. But they're the only show in town and again the results are OK. *&%^*(&^* that cheesey reversing switch!! It breaks down every time. And then you're all panicky trying to keep things going for consistency sake etc. etc. I wouldn't put any other money into it. When it dies I'll have to build something myself I guess. Obviously others mileage has varied and I hope I'm not making anybody too mad but that's how I see it.

Ken Lee
19-May-2004, 13:35
XCX - I presume the 16x20 drum is good for 16x20's only, right ? I forgot to mention that the Jobo 3010 will do from 1 to 10 4x5's... only. Will the motor run a 3010 drum ?

Nick_3536
19-May-2004, 13:44
"Uniroller motor base with my 3005 and 3010 tanks. Really more work than that motor wants to do. "

How heavy are those 3000 tanks? I've used the same sort of motor with the 2500 tanks and alot of developer. No problems. Nada. Not even a squeak of complaint.

Michael Kadillak
19-May-2004, 14:29
Jim. After six months with the BTZS tubes years ago, I invested in a JOBO CPP2 with a lift (it came for free with the purchase) as I did not like the CPA2 and it has unquestionably been a trouble free system for me for over five years now and I use the hell out of it to process films from 4x5 to 12x20 and it has never let me down. Sorry to hear that you are having difficulty with yours.

As is the case with many decisions with ones photography, you need to find where you are in the costs/results relationship. I know guys that develop only in trays, others do brush development and yet others have the rather expensive automated JOBO systems where you push a button and put on a pot of coffee. I personally find that the least amount of my attention that I need to commit to the negative stage, the better. It is not wrong or right, only right for me. Plus I do not have to worry about spilling chemistry.

And not, I have absolutely no affiliation with JOBO whatsoever. I will tell you that as a business owner I have a particular fondness for good old fashioned "customer service" in a art form I participate in.

Cheers!

Kevin M Bourque
19-May-2004, 14:37
I used to use the 8x10 tank on a homemade roller stand. I made it for free from a scrap of pine board and some castoff wheels from a dolly.

I just poured the developer into the tank, turned it on its side, and rolled it manually. I never saw any evidence that the fifteen or so seconds spent in a vertical position caused uneven development. I even developed a sheet of uniformly exposed film to see if there was a problem. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but those are my results.

wfwhitaker
19-May-2004, 14:43
Using the Jobo 3005 Expert drum on the manual roller base I don't add chemistry while rotating the drum. I remove the drum, dump and pour in new chemistry. I know you're thinking "streaked negatives", but I haven't had any problem. And I only need two hands to do it.

tim atherton
19-May-2004, 15:24
As well as using Unicolor drums on a Unicolor base (4 x 4x5 or up to two 8x10 depending on the drum) I also use a Jobo 3005 tank for 5 x 8x10.

It seems to work great. The only problem I had was with HP5 - which I never seemed to be able to process without edge density problems. Eventually I tried DD-X for the HP5 - which is great and no more problems.

I got a couple of funnels from the auto store - the sort for changing oil or lubricants, which come with an attached flexible tube. Set the roller base going then pour the chems in via the funnel/tube. One even has a tap on it, so I can fill the (marked) funnel up then just open the tap. You just have to be careful not to let it all go in too quickly or it overflows (the Unicolor drums are designed for hand filling and work better in that respect).

There are details on the Unicolor drum system on this website.

I have two roller bases (one came free with a Unicolor drum I bought...). On one I've put a couple of little lumps of plasticene under the rubber roller wheel in a different spot on each - it gives a very slight, randomish left to right rock that seemed to help with the edge density - I figure it introduces a slight "random" swirl into the process...

CXC
19-May-2004, 20:34
The 16x20 is a 'print' drum, meaning it has ridges on the inside. I use it to develop one 12x20 or two 7x17 negs. I'm sure you could use it at least down to 8x10, several at a time, if you figured out a way to keep them from overlapping.

Yes the drum will work itself out of kilter and fall off the roller if you turn your back. I'm gonna try rubber bands or something to stop it.

Ron Bose
20-May-2004, 15:27
My buying a Jobo processor story is like my buying an Arca Swiss B1 story.

In both cases I took the long and expensive way (via a Foba and big Bogen heads before the Arca-Swiss ) and a whole bunch of trays, Unicolor tubes/roller, BTZS tubes and even an Agnekolor before I found a Jobo CPP-2 for one hundred Canadian in the basement of my local camera store. I've had to buy new bottles and the 3010 tank but now I'm all set.

You can buy the Jobo rollers, they're very cheap and work pretty well according to Jobo's excellent tech-support. But a processor has a tempered water bath, continuous agitation, and a clean method of chemistry handling. Although 90% of my work will be B&W, the processor will also allow me to run E-6, C-41 and RA-4.

Moral of the story: I wish I'd just bought the Arca B1 straight away. I wish I'd bought the Jobo straight away.

But that's just me .....

Ron Bose
20-May-2004, 16:44
Just a thought:

The 3010 tank is designed to have the chemistry introduced while it is rotating. If you wanted to maintain as even development as possible then maybe the following method is worth a try:

Only load film into three adjacent cylinders (i.e six sheets). Then place the drum on the Jobo rollers. Ensure that you know where the two empty cylinders are in relation to the tank's label.

Orient the label such that the two empty cylinders are the low point of the drum. When you pour in the chemistry, you'll have filled the two empty cylinders with chemistry and thus when you start the manual rotations the flow of chemistry onto the film surface will be even.

Does this make sense ??

Michael E. Gordon
20-May-2004, 17:19
The 3010 tank is designed to have the chemistry introduced while it is rotating. If you wanted to maintain as even development as possible then maybe the following method is worth a try

Ron, even though that may be the case, not once have I introduced chemistry while the drum was rolling - even when filled with ten sheets. I have not had a single instance of uneven development. I'll likely continue with my method until an error convinces me otherwise.

Just curious for those that may have the answer: chemistry is never introduced into small roll film tanks (while rotating) and uneven development is not really a concern there, so why is it a concern with sheet film in a Jobo (or other rotaries)?

Ken Lee
20-May-2004, 17:23
William - Thanks so much for recommending the Manual Roller. If many of us can roll a bunch of BTZS tubes, I ought to be able to roll a 3010 for a while. When I had a 2500, I rolled it on a towel, which was a royal pain.



http://www.kenleegallery.com/jobo1509.gif



Looks like a simple way to go. I'm just an amateur. It's much harder to keep open trays at the right temperature, than it is to keep a few containers of chemicals at the right temp until they're ready to be poured. All that takes is a big beer cooler.



Do you recommend the pump accessory to quickly open the lid ? Also, how long does it take to empty the tank ?

Ron Bose
20-May-2004, 20:19
Michael:

Uneven development may occur if there is 'pooling' of the developer during the pour process. During the pour period, some parts of the film will be in contact with the developer for longer periods than other parts. Degree of uneven development will depend on pour time (hence uneven contact time) and concentration of the developer.

I have extra concerns with the 3010 Expert drum when it comes to static filling because of the complex design of the tank's internals and the time that it might take to reach a steady state flow pattern. This time is negligible in 'hollow' simple drums. Just fluid dynamics ....

Also, this may not even be an issue with B&W processing where we use more dilute developers, but for C-41 and E-6 it's more important.

If static pours work for you, don't change !!!

When I was discussing the manual roller solution with Jobo, they still recommended pouring developer while rotating. They described a right-angled bend, tube and funnel arrangement - give me a break ...

Caveat - I'm a process control engineer by profession ... I love automation !!!

europanorama
24-May-2004, 20:46
cpp and cpa2 are identical beside the added digital timer(take a kitchen timer instead)in more expensive cpp. it is possible that our friend had on older version. thats why he switched to cpp. pls check jobo-site to check the difference. its easy to find out- eighter from design or serial number. if you dont find send me mail. what i have found out was poor design in the switch mechanisme(i dont remember exactly what it was but i was aware that this switch could block the rotating mechnisme in case of break. thats why i have blocked it. if interested send me mail and i will check it during june when i will restart developping and will unpack cpa2.

Ken Lee
8-Jun-2004, 05:49
I got a Jobo 3010 and a manual roller. It all works perfectly: no scratches, very even development, no open trays, no foul odors, no sheets stuck together, consistent temperature, etc. The manual roller is small, and it's just as easy to roll it, as it is to flop film around in the dark - easier in fact. What a delight ! Works well with Pyrocat HD, with no need for rubber gloves. Thanks to all for the advice and insights !

Michael Stewart
28-Jun-2004, 23:40
FWIW:

I made my first motor base out of Erector Set in the 1970's. No, it was NOT multidirectional. It was easy to add small wheels at the ends to keep the drum from walking away.

I've been using Jobos for several years now, currently a CPP2. Good temperature control is necessary for modern "hot" color processes. I've had no problems with the reversing switch. There are two kinds of lifts for the Jobos; the "new" and the "old" style lift. The most noticeable difference is the clips, but there is also a change in how the upper/lower spout is selected. I've used both.

For the 3000 series drums I strongly prefer the "old" style lift, if you can get one, because the pouring-in of chemistry is much faster and more efficient and you don't waste a small amount of chemistry in the lower spout. For all other drums I prefer the "new" style lift because the clips are better.

Raising a 3000 series drum full of solution can torque the lift pretty good, especially a full 3063. To avoid breaking the lift internally (guess how I got to try both lift styles) Jobo suggests: 1) Use your left hand to hold the bottle capturing the draining solution, 2) Use your right hand to manipulate the lift, 3) Use your other hand to help lift the drum.

Re: even development. Even in a running Jobo you'll get uneven coverage for the first few seconds until the minimum volume is achieved. You won't see a difference, but I just mention this to make the perfectionists cringe.

Nick_3536
29-Jun-2004, 06:07
"Good temperature control is necessary for modern "hot" color processes."

I don't use the Expert drums but the 2500/2800 drums. So take what I say with that in mind.

With both RA-4 and C-41 the drums hold temperture well enough that you can run the process on the motorbase. With RA-4 the pre-wash heats the inside of the drum. The short developer step isn't long enough to cool anything. With C-41 I do a dry preheat of the loaded tank. Basically I just let it stand in the water bath with a brick on top. Even the C-41 developer step isn't long enough to let the tank cool down.

I haven't tried E-6 and those steps are longer IIRC. That might let the tank cool down.

All the chemicals and wash water sit in a water bath built out of a picnic cooler and a fish heater.

I used to dream of one of those CPA processors. I no longer even think of it. I might keep my eye out for a ATL processor or maybe a print processor but the motorbase handles C-41,RA-4 and B&W just fine for me. YMMV

William Gregory
6-Aug-2007, 12:13
So, is it possible to use the Jobo 3005 and or the 3010 on either the uniroller or bessler motorbase? I see both a uniroller and bessler motorbase for sale right now and am wondering if they can roll the Jobos?

I've never used a jobo before. Is it best to get a funnel and fill while in rotation or is filling before hand okay?

Thanks! I appreciate this thead.
WG

Ron Marshall
6-Aug-2007, 12:23
So, is it possible to use the Jobo 3005 and or the 3010 on either the uniroller or bessler motorbase? I see both a uniroller and bessler motorbase for sale right now and am wondering if they can roll the Jobos?

I've never used a jobo before. Is it best to get a funnel and fill while in rotation or is filling before hand okay?

Thanks! I appreciate this thead.
WG

I generally use about 300 ml of developer, which fills in 10 seconds, with the 3006 drum held at a slight angle. My developing times are never shorter than 5 minutes, so there is no need to worry about uneven development if you don't use a funnel. Just be sure that your fill time is not long relative to your development time. I rarely use a presoak and have never had any uneven development.

If you are concerned about uneven development you can use a presoak, some time is required for the developer to displace the water from the emulsion.

William Gregory
6-Aug-2007, 12:29
Thanks Ron!

And will these drums work on the uniroller or bessler motorbase with no troubles?

Ron Marshall
6-Aug-2007, 12:55
Thanks Ron!

And will these drums work on the uniroller or bessler motorbase with no troubles?

I can't say, as I use mine on the $25 manual Jobo roller base. I like that because I can control the rotational speed and the number of revolutions before reversing direction.

Good luck!

Jordan
6-Aug-2007, 17:21
I recently purchased a jobo 3010 after I had been using the 3005 on a beseler motor base for about a year and half with amazing success....... the 3010 hasn't been the same success I had been experiencing with 3005. I may have gotten a faulty jobo drum as one tube wouldn't fix a neg all the way and the others had a little bit of trouble doing the same as well. I used plenty of chemistry and the drum was level and rotating just fine...................

Vaughn
6-Aug-2007, 23:15
I use the 3005 (5 8x10's) on a Unicolor motor base with success. I adjusted the motor base to turn in one direction only.

I fill it while it is on the base and turning -- using a funnel and a short bit of stiff plastic tubing that already has a nice bend to it from being in a roll at one time. I have a small tray to catch any liquid that may back up when I pour too quickly. I use a liter of diluted developer (Ilford PQ Developer at the ratio of about 50:950...though I will vary this depending on the contrast range of the scene and which process the negs are for...platinum or carbon).

Vaughn

bob carnie
7-Aug-2007, 07:00
I own an Alt2300 and a Alt3 , with more drums, reels than I care to mention.
I have just purchased a JoboCPP as a back up to my main systems.
These units have processed thousands of runs of film for me and they are excellent devices.
But
when Omega Satter got the rights to the Jobo inventory I have to say customer service is the worst I have ever seen.

A lift arm is a expensive purchase and installation is tricky for one of these suckers.
I have gone through quite a few of them.
The panic started for us last year when we tried to order parts , we were told they were not in stock in NA and it would be 90days from order .WTF is up with that?
Has Omega Satter sorted out this problem?
Do they have a complete inventory of parts and lift arms?
maybe something has changed over the last 6months, *I hope* but we are in the process of finding spare parts wherever we can, much like times when Hope Processors went out of operations.

MenacingTourist
13-Aug-2007, 19:36
I'm another 3005 user who takes it off the roller base to fill. Granted I've only used it about a dozen times but so far no uneven development. I just pour it right down the hole with a funnel.

Alan.

Asher Kelman
31-May-2011, 13:02
This is a wonderful thread! I'm amazed that the 3005 and 3010 expert tanks hold the temp for C-41 processing using a simple roller!!

Asher

venchka
31-May-2011, 13:16
100+ and counting negatives with a Jobo 3010 expert drum AND/OR many rolls of 120 & 35mm film in a Jobo 2551 tank either one rotating blissfully in one direction only on either a Uniroller or Beseler motor base. B&W only. Time adjusted to ambient temperature in my kitchen in Houston, TX.

ps: One way rotation WITHOUT any drum or tank flipping.

pps: Total investment UNDER $200.

Asher Kelman
31-May-2011, 17:49
100+ and counting negatives with a Jobo 3010 expert drum AND/OR many rolls of 120 & 35mm film in a Jobo 2551 tank either one rotating blissfully in one direction only on either a Uniroller or Beseler motor base. B&W only. Time adjusted to ambient temperature in my kitchen in Houston, TX.

ps: One way rotation WITHOUT any drum or tank flipping.

pps: Total investment UNDER $200.

Wonderful report!

This seems simple enough to travel with!

......and how is the color film from your Pentax 6x7 and Hassy on loan processed? Seems that the pro tanks might hold the temp for C-41 processing.

I'm still trying to snag some 3005 and 3010 tanks!

Asher

Cor
1-Jun-2011, 06:24
Wayne,

what about filling the 3010 tank; upright off the base, or horizontal on the base with a funnel and a bent hose?

best,

cor
100+ and counting negatives with a Jobo 3010 expert drum AND/OR many rolls of 120 & 35mm film in a Jobo 2551 tank either one rotating blissfully in one direction only on either a Uniroller or Beseler motor base. B&W only. Time adjusted to ambient temperature in my kitchen in Houston, TX.

ps: One way rotation WITHOUT any drum or tank flipping.

pps: Total investment UNDER $200.

venchka
2-Jun-2011, 06:59
Wonderful report!

This seems simple enough to travel with!

......and how is the color film from your Pentax 6x7 and Hassy on loan processed? Seems that the pro tanks might hold the temp for C-41 processing.

I'm still trying to snag some 3005 and 3010 tanks!

Asher

Good memory. The Pentax broke. I sent it to the Pentax Doctor in Tenn. It came back good as new and has the split image focus screen that helps my old eyes tremendously.
I give all my 120 & 220 color film (C-41 & E6) to Walmart. Wait. Wait. 10 days or so and it's back. No worries so far.


Wayne,

what about filling the 3010 tank; upright off the base, or horizontal on the base with a funnel and a bent hose?

best,

cor

I use a quart/liter size funnel and attached clear plastic tube and end fitting from the auto department at Walmart. I'm sure auto parts stores sell something similar. I cut about half of the delivery tube off. My version has a twist turn ON/OFF valve between the funnel & tube. I have it set to about 2/3 open.
Place the drum/tank on the motor base. Opening over the sink to catch dribbles. Turn it on.
Funnel in left hand. 700-800ml developer in graduate right hand. Gralab timer close by.
Pour all the developer in the funnel. Turn timer on.
About 25 seconds before the end I dump the developer in the sink. Tank/drum back on base with about 10 seconds to go. Same arrangement for stop. Pour stop when the timer buzzes. I am most comfortable with times around 10 minutes or more & Xtol 1:3. That way any slight deviation in the fill/dump/fill cycle doesn't throw things off too much. Works for me.
All this talk makes me want to shoot 4x5 this weekend. I haven't exposed any 4x5 film since forever.
Sorry for the wordy reply. ;)

Scotty230358
2-Jun-2011, 07:08
I use a Simmard motorised base and fill the drum by holding it at 45 degrees and filling it with 750ml of chemicals. I flip it every 30 seconds. I have had no development issues using this method.

Brian Ellis
2-Jun-2011, 07:42
Is there any advantage to using a Jobo drum and rolling it by hand as compared with using BTZS tubes? I did six 4x5 negatives at a time with the tubes, the Jobo drum I used briefly did 10, but if it was important to me I think I could do 10 BTZS tubes at a time. And the tubes possess what used to be the big advantage for me of being able to process different negatives for different times in the same run as opposed to having to do one run for N negatives, another for plus, and a third for minus. After I started scanning and printing digitally instead of using a fume room I stopped worrying that much about pluses and minuses but I still appreciated the ability to occasionally vary times within the same run.

Allen in Montreal
2-Jun-2011, 08:11
I too have no room for a Jobo in my darkroom, ever since I lost access to a Wyng Lynch I have been using a roller base like many here and use a funnel for Dev and Stop while rotating, once stop bath is done I just pour it down the hole.

Great system.

David Karp
2-Jun-2011, 09:27
This setup for Jobo Expert drums works well for me, and gives my wife endless material to tease me about:

www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=51174

Asher Kelman
2-Jun-2011, 12:51
This setup for Jobo Expert drums works well for me, and gives my wife endless material to tease me about:

www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=51174

David,

I'm interested in using this setup for color too. Can this be use with C-41 or does the temp drop too fast?

Asher

David Karp
2-Jun-2011, 13:11
Hi Asher,

To be truthful, I have no idea. The temperature in my house usually ranges from 68-72 degrees. For years, I have been using two bath black and white developers, and that temperature range works just fine for black and white processing. Whether the setup I have will work for color is a question I am not qualified to answer. I defer to those who posted above on that question.

venchka
2-Jun-2011, 14:23
Is there any advantage to using a Jobo drum and rolling it by hand as compared with using BTZS tubes? I did six 4x5 negatives at a time with the tubes, the Jobo drum I used briefly did 10, but if it was important to me I think I could do 10 BTZS tubes at a time. And the tubes possess what used to be the big advantage for me of being able to process different negatives for different times in the same run as opposed to having to do one run for N negatives, another for plus, and a third for minus. After I started scanning and printing digitally instead of using a fume room I stopped worrying that much about pluses and minuses but I still appreciated the ability to occasionally vary times within the same run.

Brian,
I can address one advantage of using a manual roller, upside down roller skates, ;) etc.: If the rollers (like the Jobo built model) would fit in a sink and the Jobo tank/drum fit on top of the rollers and could be partially submerged in water in the sink that would be better than having to juggle times around the temperature in my kitchen. I'm ok in the winter. Summers in Houston are a killer. A system of tempered water in a sink might also open the possibilites for color.
No help on the multiple development times of course.
Was that clear as mud? :)