New to 4x5 photography, just bought Wisner camera, advice appreciated

[Larry Kellogg]

Hello,
A friend of mine just sold me his Wisner 4x5 Technical Field Camera, pictures attached. He threw in a couple of lenses, an ancient 6.5 inch Goerz Dagor and an 6.5 inch Wollansak extreme WA. I just bought a Fujinon 240mm f/9 lens on eBay so that is my whole kit. Oh, I also bought a Gitzo 1228 tripod on eBay an I have to get a tripod head(GH2750?), film holders (Toyo?), and a changing tent (Harrison?), oh, and some film, plus a backpack, LOL. I have been shooting medium format for a few years and have come to dig Portra 400 for its wide latitude, but I will definitely want to shoot T-Max.

I live in New York City so I will rely on Sunshine Labs on 31st street for processing, although I have signed up for a B+W film/darkroom course at the International Center for Photography.

I have both the Simmons book and the Stroebel book. I'm looking forward to getting into slow photography! I would be happy to hear from other NYC Large Format photographers. I hope I won't be hassled for a tripod permit in Central Park. As far as I can tell, those regulations have been thrown out.

All advice is welcome! I really need an empty film box so I can take my first shots to the lab for processing. I would gladly PayPal somebody to send me an empty box.

Best,

Larry Kellogg

[Roger Thoms]

Nice camera, looks like your off to a good start.

Roger

[John Kasaian]

It sounds like you've got a first class kit--congratulations! Your lab should be able to supply you with an empty 3 piece box. Have fun!

[Steven Tribe]

Harrison's are unfortunately expensive and bulky, and need an enormous table area (the legs stick out). If you are running out of funds, you can easily make do with a large changing bag.

I regularly use one of these for 8x10 work (folding book-type plate holders!, developing tubes, fresh film boxes and exposed film boxes).

[kgm]

Regarding the tripod head, I would suggest that you avoid a ball head for large format. They seem to be all that anyone uses for smaller formats now, but I think that it's harder to get the camera precisely leveled.
The camera looks great. I sold my 8x10 Wisner a couple of years ago. I had no complaints with the camera, but wanted to get back to 4x5. I think that you'll find that the older lenses can provide great quality. You may have to be careful about shading the front of the lens to keep flare controlled. I've got some older, cheaper lenses that serve me well if I'm careful with them.
When I got my first 4x5 over 25 years ago, I taught myself with the Stroebel book, and added the Simmons one sometime later. They've got pretty much everything that you need to know. The Ansel Adams books, The Camera and The Negative are also great introductions to the basics, although they cover more than just large format work.

[john borrelli]

Welcome, I am not sure how far along you are, so if some of these suggestions are too basic for you, perhaps they may be helpful to the next new LFer. My Wisner has the original groundglass and the view is a bit dark, darker than other cameras I have used.

Some Wisners have a fresnel which makes them a bit brighter, you could ask the person you bought the camera from about whether it is the original or whether it's been modified. The Fuji lens you bought is one of the best but at f9.0 instead of f5.6 as your typical 135, 150, 180 or 210 plasmat, your view through the camera will be slightly darker, therefore I would suggest a good darkcloth either one of the many on the market($25.00 to a $100.00) or one you make yourself, and a good loupe (which start for around 15.00 dollars for a good plastic one). These may be important items because you need to practice to learn how the camera movements work and to understand how they are working you will need to be able to differentiate the sharp from the unsharp areas on your groundglass. These differences at first might seem subtle. With your loupe, dark cloth and camera, go out on a bright afternoon and practice.

Also, be careful opening and closing the camera, Most woodfields are a little difficult to open and close and it's easy to damage a bellows by closing the camera on it or damage the camera by trying to close the camera with one of the standards not loosened enough, or thinking you are closing the camera properly but the camera is not exactly zeroed out. I have two pages of instructions to open and close my camera, though I have a Wisner Pocket Expedition which I believe to be the most difficult of all woodfields in this regard. Mistakes like these are often made at the beginning, there is a good Youtube video on opening and closing a Wisner.

Lastly, although I am just an amateur here, this site is an amazing source of information and support. You could ask a question on this forum and receive an answer from one of the best LF photographers working today. All the best, John

[Larry Kellogg]

Thanks for all the comments. Perhaps I'll just get a changing bag for the time being instead of that Harrison tent, thanks for that suggestion. My wife is already not happy about the addition of yet another camera, so I should try to keep the other gear to a minimum. I was struck by how small and portable the WIsner is, I had envisioned it to be much larger.

I was thinking about getting a leveling head, as recommended by Ken Lee, who is on here and has put together a wonderful site. If I don't get a ballhead, what would be a recommended head?

I have learned how to open and close the Wisner without damaging it. I know it's important to extend the front standard before pulling it up, in order not to damage the bellows. I love all the knobs.

I am wondering how much I can rely on the image snapping into place on the ground glass versus checking it all over.I am used to shooting a Rolleiflex but this is a whole different animal. I have a loupe but need to get a darkcloth. I am still wondering about calculating bellows extension and reciprocity failure. I think I'm going to get the iPhone app for the later. I am using ViewFinder Pro on my iPhone in order to pre-visualize shots in 4x5 format.

My lab guys are going to set me up with some empty boxes. Thanks for the offer, though.

I am thinking about doing some kind of Spring photography project in Central Park. It seems like color would be the way to go. Any thoughts on that idea?

Regards,

Larry

[David Schaller]

You can load and unload holders in a dark bathroom or closet. Don't worry too much about changing bags or dark tents. Practice a bit with exposed film. The Wisner is a great camera. I've had mine for 12 years. A basic Manfrotto three way tripod head is fine with the Wisner. If you feel flush, the Manfrotto 410 geared tripod head is great. I use it for 8x10 too.
Dave

[Roger Thoms]

I've loaded my share of film in a changing bag, that said I bought a Harrison tent about two years age and am very pleased. I certainly would not want to go back to the changing bag. The Harrison's are pricey, so I wouldn't necessarily run right out and buy one but if you stick with large format I would consider one in the future. The recommendation about blacking out a closet or bathroom is a good one. I have a black out cloth that I hang over the inside of my closet door and inside I have a small work table. The table is 24" square and initially I was in a 42" wide x 28" deep closet, it was a little cramped but doable. Recently my girlfriend made room for my setup in the bigger closet, yahoo!!! I load film holders with film and BTZS tubes with film and developer in the closet. The Harrison is used primarily in the field.

Roger

Btw good to hear your lab has boxes. If for any reason they don't come through my offer still stands.

[biedron]

I would second Roger's comments about the Harrison tent - well worth it when you have the funds, especially if you travel. Yes, you can manage with tape/towels in a closet or bathroom, but the Harrison makes it so much easier. They occasionally appear for sale used.

Bob

[Lenny Eiger]

Hello,
A friend of mine just sold me his Wisner 4x5 Technical Field Camera, pictures attached.

Pretty Camera!


He threw in a couple of lenses, an ancient 6.5 inch Goerz Dagor and an 6.5 inch Wollansak extreme WA. I just bought a Fujinon 240mm f/9 lens on eBay so that is my whole kit.

They're all you need... Dagor's are great.


Oh, I also bought a Gitzo 1228 tripod on eBay an I have to get a tripod head(GH2750?), film holders (Toyo?), and a changing tent (Harrison?), oh, and some film, plus a backpack, LOL. I have been shooting medium format for a few years and have come to dig Portra 400 for its wide latitude, but I will definitely want to shoot T-Max.

I'll go along with the other, I love Harrison's. There is a lot of great stuff being sold here all the time, especially film holders. They are cheap... I use the plastic Fidelity or Lisco ones and they're fine. TMax is ok, but give Ilford Delta 100 a try. It's a lot cheaper and I think its actually better.


I live in New York City so I will rely on Sunshine Labs on 31st street for processing, although I have signed up for a B+W film/darkroom course at the International Center for Photography.

Make sure you try Xtol and/or Pyro....

Welcome to a grand adventure. You don't need to know all the swings and tilts for your first outings. Make sure the back and front are parallel and just point the camera somewhere. There's plenty of time to pick up all the tricks.

Good luck,

Lenny

[Jim Andrada]

I third the changing tent!

I used a bag but it was a real dust bath compared to the tent. I have the larger (but not Jumbo) Harrison and it's a little tight for 8 x 10 but workable. Every damn room in our house has a skylight and the closets are full so it's the tent or nothing! I leave it set up most of the time and prop it up on a bookcase when it isn't in use. I made the mistake of leaving on the table overnight and when I picked it up to put it away the cat jumped out. Oh well, cat fur isn't the worst thing I guess. Still better than a changing bag!

[Larry Kellogg]

Thanks for all the comments! I see a Harrison in my near future, LOL. Work is interfering at the moment with my large format plans but I will try to get my act together soon and put some results up here. I love all the posts that show the camera and the resulting shot.

All the best,

Larry

[Larry Kellogg]

Ok, I have made some progress, I picked up the Manfrotto 410 tripod head and the 438 leveling base from B&H, as recommend by Ken Lee. I went back and forth whether to go with a ball head or this but I decided that if this setup would get the leveling part of the done quickly, then maybe my wife would tolerate some hikes that included shooting LF. I can see her getting into the compositional side of shooting, as she loves photography, but I think she would get annoyed if she had to wait 15 minutes for me to level the camera and tripod. That's my theory, anyway. I'll have to test it out. ;-)

The guy at B&H was able to talk in such great detail about tripods, and was personable, that I never managed to buy any other stuff as the store was closing. I'll be back.

Oh, one concern, I didn't really want a tripod with a quick release but the 410 only comes with a quick release. It is certainly a substantial plate and locking mechanism. With the camera folded, would it be crazy for me to walk around with it over my head?

I still wonder if I need a photography permit to shoot LF in Central Park. I don't know if there are any New Yorkers on here, but am I going to get thrown out for setting up a tripod? I think I found this form online: http://www.centralparknyc.org/visit/general-info/filming-photography/filming-photo-app.html but it seems geared to professional production companies. What about a husband and wife team with a tripod. I figured we could set the tripod up in the middle of a picnic blanket and hang our lunch from the hook. Eat, talk, frame, shoot. ;-) Slow photography + slow food.

Regards,

Larry

[Roger Thoms]

I use a 410 with my Sinar Alpina (monorail) and walk all over the place with the camera mounted on the tripod. I generally set the camera up and mount it on the tripod at the car and then head out. Not sure how much the Alpina weighs, maybe 6 or 7 lbs., anyway the QR on the 410 handles t just fine.

Roger

[Larry Kellogg]

I use a 410 with my Sinar Alpina (monorail) and walk all over the place with the camera mounted on the tripod. I generally set the camera up and mount it on the tripod at the car and then head out. Not sure how much the Alpina weighs, maybe 6 or 7 lbs., anyway the QR on the 410 handles t just fine.

Roger

Thanks, Roger, that makes me feel better about dangling the camera over my head.

i did find this thread from 2007 about shooting in the park:

http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-35262.html

and this:

"Per the email from the CPC fellow, the rules for shooting in the park are simple: Be sure to keep all equipment on paved pathways and do not block any area of the Park."

Hmm, I have been thinking about off pavement locations. I wouldn't set up on the loop road only to be taken out by a cyclist. The birders set tripods up in the Ramble. There is the guy who watches Pale Male, the hawk, near the boathouse. He has a massive tripod and telescope.

I guess we'll see.

[Larry Kellogg]

Which size Harrison tent should I get? There are three sizes. I will not be moving up to 8x10. I believe 4x5 is my limit.

Larry

[neil poulsen]

The middle one just capable of 8x10 provides ample room for loading 4x5.

Be careful purchasing a used Harrison. In some of them, the outside of the inner layer material can deteriorate and develop a moist feel to it. I purchased one (cheap) in this condition and didn't realize the problem until it was too late to return.

Hopefully, new Harrison's won't deteriorate like this one did.

[neil poulsen]

You will probably want a bag bellows at some point for wide-angle lenses. Some of the early Wisner bag bellows were red inside. Watch for this and get one that has a black lining.

[patrickjames]

You might want to take a look at the Photoflex changing room. It is a lot less expensive than the Harrison's and the sleeves are on the sides. I typically put it on my lap while watching tv to change or load film. It is large enough to put a Jobo 3010 in without any trouble. I can easily load Grafmatics and up to about 10 holders at a time.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/41880-REG/Photoflex_AC_CROO1_Film_Changing_Room_25.html

[Larry Kellogg]

You will probably want a bag bellows at some point for wide-angle lenses. Some of the early Wisner bag bellows were red inside. Watch for this and get one that has a black lining.

Just curious, what is wrong with the ones with the red lining? Larry

[Larry Kellogg]

You might want to take a look at the Photoflex changing room. It is a lot less expensive than the Harrison's and the sleeves are on the sides. I typically put it on my lap while watching tv to change or load film. It is large enough to put a Jobo 3010 in without any trouble. I can easily load Grafmatics and up to about 10 holders at a time.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/41880-REG/Photoflex_AC_CROO1_Film_Changing_Room_25.html

Some people gave it a thumbs down for light tightness, although it is 1/3rd the price of the Harrison.

Larry

[Leszek Vogt]

You could jing the film office in NYC and ask for specifics. Unless you're doing some sort of commercial venue, w/lights, trucks, 100 crew....otherwise you should be exempt (?).
If you don't have any empty boxes to load your film, you can get film sleeves at Adorama or B&H....that will get you through the tough times. Some labs will give those out at not charge (don't expect many), while others will.

I never bought into the Harrison tent thing....and got really nice custom made bag (in the 80's). It's made out of non-rip nylon and it feels durable enough to outlast me. It was designed for camera assistants and it can handle 1000' (35mm) film magazines. Perhaps Chris Keth would know where to get it around LA. The cost was reasonable, but it likely went up up.

Les

[Larry Kellogg]

You could jing the film office in NYC and ask for specifics. Unless you're doing some sort of commercial venue, w/lights, trucks, 100 crew....otherwise you should be exempt (?).

If you don't have any empty boxes to load your film, you can get film sleeves at Adorama or B&H....that will get you through the tough times. Some labs will give those out at not charge (don't expect many), while others will.

I never bought into the Harrison tent thing....and got really nice custom made bag (in the 80's). It's made out of non-rip nylon and it feels durable enough to outlast me. It was designed for camera assistants and it can handle 1000' (35mm) film magazines. Perhaps Chris Keth would know where to get it around LA. The cost was reasonable, but it likely went up up.

Les

Les,
Yeah, but it is the Parks Department and they make their own rules.I guess I'll have to try and find out what happens. I think my wife and I have seen some LF photographers in the park, but it's pretty rare. I can't see why one guy with a tripod is more of a problem than ten bikers in a peloton who run you over at 30mph.

Thanks for the tip on the changing bag. I assume the Harrison thing breaks down into a small package but would it be something I would take to the field?

My lab guys, Sunshine Color Labs on West 31st street, hooked me up with some 4x5 boxes, no problem. They're really nice over there, check them out if you're in New York.

Larry

[Larry Kellogg]

Well, for anybody following this thread, you might as well hear about my bungled attempts to get started with 4x5 photography, LOL. So, I got the little Harrison tent, just love it, but when I went to load my first holder, I forgot to zip up the inner compartment, and just zipped up the outer compartment, duh! Well, that resulted in the first two shots being fogged. Now, I'm just hoping that somehow half of the box of Tri-X is not ruined and was protected by being in a stack, inside of a wrapper. There are two packages in the box, and I only opened one and took out two sheets as carefully as possible.

So, I learned a valuable lesson and feel pretty stupid about my mistake. I need to put a little reminder sticker on the outside of the tent to tell myself to check to make sure the inner compartment is zipped up before I start working with it.

I'm waiting on the next two sheets of film to be developed. I don't have a darkroom at this time but have signed up for a course at the International Center of Photography that will give me darkroom privileges.

I have just started to photograph by pointing the camera out of my window. I want to try some still lifes but don't really know how to deal with bellows extension and reciprocity failure yet although I did pick up the reciprocity timer app. Any help would be appreciated.

Live and learn,

Larry

[C_Remington]

What's the point of a changing bag????

Just use one of the simple BE formulas u can do in your head.

[Larry Kellogg]

What's the point of a changing bag????.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking why I made a mistake? I screwed up.


Just use one of the simple BE formulas u can do in your head.

Hmm, got a link to these formulas that I can memorize? Do I have to carry a metric ruler to set the camera? There certainly aren't any markings.

Larry

[C_Remington]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking why I made a mistake? I screwed up.



Hmm, got a link to these formulas that I can memorize? Do I have to carry a metric ruler to set the camera? There certainly aren't any markings.

Larry
Theres a rule of thumb approach that works well.

For every 25% increase in the length of the bellows add one 1/2 stop of exposure, for a 50% increase in the lenth of the bellows add 1 full stop of exposure etc.

e.g It you were using say an 8 inch lens and the bellows were extended 10 inches (25% more than the focal length of the lens) you would add 1/2 stop, if the bellows were extended to 12 inches (50% more than the focal length of the lens) you would add 1 full stop of exposure. If the bellows were 16 inches (1:1 reproduction) you would add 2 stops of exposure.

[C_Remington]

And then, can't u load your film in a black room ?

[Larry Kellogg]

Theres a rule of thumb approach that works well.

For every 25% increase in the length of the bellows add one 1/2 stop of exposure, for a 50% increase in the lenth of the bellows add 1 full stop of exposure etc.

e.g It you were using say an 8 inch lens and the bellows were extended 10 inches (25% more than the focal length of the lens) you would add 1/2 stop, if the bellows were extended to 12 inches (50% more than the focal length of the lens) you would add 1 full stop of exposure. If the bellows were 16 inches (1:1 reproduction) you would add 2 stops of exposure.

Ok, so, I have to convert my lenses to inches, so my 240mm is 9.4 inches, and then I measure my bellows extension when in focus, and add exposure to compensate, after first coming up with an exposure. Got it, I think.

[Larry Kellogg]

And then, can't u load your film in a black room ?

I suppose my bathroom might work, but I bought the little Harrison pup tent to carry with me so I could change film on hiking trips.

[john borrelli]

Welcome to LF.

I made these kinds of mistakes all the time at the beginning and then less so as time went on. For me correctly loading and unloading film holders is still difficult and time consuming particularly as I have lately been shooting two different films in the same types of film holders. I would go as far as to say that using the camera to make images is less challenging then messing around with film in the dark. I use to get frustrated enough that I would only use Quickloads for a while but that option is no longer practical.

I can appreciate the changing tent idea for hiking but you might want to try learning to load the film holders in a closet or dark room at night first. Then when you have done that enough times successfully you could then begin to use the dark tent. I use a small closet with a little table, a chair, film holders, one type of film at a time and a dust blower. I only load and unload film holders at night.


As far as close-ups, I rarely do them but I did own a Calumet gizmo which was like a little disc and a ruler and that does work, not sure Calumet makes them anymore as the company seems to have turned their back to LF photography in recent years. But there is a gadget called the Quick Disc that seems similar and it's free and it doesn't require batteries. It's at www.salzgeber.com I think.

[Robert Brummitt]

Welcome to LF and being a Fellow Wisner owner.
I've had mine for 25 years maybe more. It's been a fun camera to work with.
Tripods.
Don't get a quick release! This is my second Wisner. The first went over Bixby bridge in Big Sur,Calif. It was a quick release that gave up. Ever since, I have use a standard screw mounted head. Chuck Farmer sold me on to Ries Tripods and that's what I have used since then for my Wisner, and my RB67 and my Deardorf. I stand behind Ries tripods. They have a great customer service too.
Wisner.
I have lost small parts of my Wisner. The round screw tighteners mostly. So, watch out if some get too loose. They can fall and get lost real easily. Since, Wisner is not around anymore as a company it's gotten very hard to replace parts. I've resorted to visiting my local Ace Hardware and getting tighteners that fit and keeping a bag in my backpack.
It would be good to polish and clean your camera too. I probably need to clean mine soon.
Red Bellows
There was a discussion long ago that the red bellows gave a color cast during long exposures. Someone showed a photo that had a red cast over it. I never had any issues myself but why tempt fate. Simply, drape your dark cloth over the bellows before exposing your film.
Enjoy that Wisner. It's a fine camera! Like I said just don't use a quick release head. Nothing like hearing the release go when your camera is looking over a long cliff.
:-)

[Robert Brummitt]

I forgot to add this.
If you are on Facebook? Look up "Red Bellows Society". Its a bunch of us Red Bellow Large Format fans. We share photos of our cameras, photographs and stories. I don't think you need a red Bellows camera. I asked and got a nod of approval if I used a red pinhole camera. :)

[Larry Kellogg]

Welcome to LF.

I made these kinds of mistakes all the time at the beginning and then less so as time went on. For me correctly loading and unloading film holders is still difficult and time consuming particularly as I have lately been shooting two different films in the same types of film holders. I would go as far as to say that using the camera to make images is less challenging then messing around with film in the dark. I use to get frustrated enough that I would only use Quickloads for a while but that option is no longer practical.

Thanks, John, I'm getting the hang of loading in the tent, even after that stupid move of not zipping up the inside compartment. I know how to feel for the little slots in the holder, and touch the notches with my right hand. It's all good. I'm getting better at unloading film as well.



I can appreciate the changing tent idea for hiking but you might want to try learning to load the film holders in a closet or dark room at night first. Then when you have done that enough times successfully you could then begin to use the dark tent. I use a small closet with a little table, a chair, film holders, one type of film at a time and a dust blower. I only load and unload film holders at night.

As far as close-ups, I rarely do them but I did own a Calumet gizmo which was like a little disc and a ruler and that does work, not sure Calumet makes them anymore as the company seems to have turned their back to LF photography in recent years. But there is a gadget called the Quick Disc that seems similar and it's free and it doesn't require batteries. It's at www.salzgeber.com I think.

By the way, I work not too far from Calumet's store in NYC, and will go ask them about large format. Calumet bought Lens&Repro, but not the repair part. I know the repair guy from Lens&Repro and can send contact information if people PM me.

[Larry Kellogg]

Welcome to LF and being a Fellow Wisner owner.
I've had mine for 25 years maybe more. It's been a fun camera to work with.

Thanks, Robert, it is a blast to shoot the camera, I agree.



Tripods.
Don't get a quick release! This is my second Wisner. The first went over Bixby bridge in Big Sur,Calif. It was a quick release that gave up. Ever since, I have use a standard screw mounted head. Chuck Farmer sold me on to Ries Tripods and that's what I have used since then for my Wisner, and my RB67 and my Deardorf. I stand behind Ries tripods. They have a great customer service too.


Oh no, that's a terrible story! You are definitely making me reconsider my use of the quick release. The trouble is that the 410 geared head only comes with a quick release. What if I rig up some kind of safety cord to tie the camera to the tripod?




Wisner.
I have lost small parts of my Wisner. The round screw tighteners mostly. So, watch out if some get too loose. They can fall and get lost real easily. Since, Wisner is not around anymore as a company it's gotten very hard to replace parts. I've resorted to visiting my local Ace Hardware and getting tighteners that fit and keeping a bag in my backpack.
It would be good to polish and clean your camera too. I probably need to clean mine soon.


What do you use to polish the camera? I agree that there are a dozen little nuts that can come off and get lost. I really like the process of tightening everything down. I used to work in a shop, building furniture, so I am used to tightening fasteners.




Red Bellows
There was a discussion long ago that the red bellows gave a color cast during long exposures. Someone showed a photo that had a red cast over it. I never had any issues myself but why tempt fate. Simply, drape your dark cloth over the bellows before exposing your film.
Enjoy that Wisner. It's a fine camera! Like I said just don't use a quick release head. Nothing like hearing the release go when your camera is looking over a long cliff.
:-)

Ah, a red color cast! I have a nice dark cloth, sewn by a friend, so I can drape it over the bellows to stop this on long exposures.

Oh, I can imagine the horror of seeing your camera go off a cliff! I heard a story of a DSLR shooter who backed up to the railing on a boat, where upon his camera backpack came unzipped and all of his expensive Canon lenses went, plop plop plop into the ocean.

Larry

P.S. I'll check out the Red Bellows society. Thanks for the recommendation.

[StoneNYC]

What I'm confused about is... Everyone makes mistakes so I'm not busting your balls or anything, but if you don't have lab access then how do you get your film from the camera to the developing tank? If you have no bag and no dark closet?

I've always used a dark bag since I first started developing at home so I'm surprised you have no practical experience with changing bags/tents.

Anyway, what do I know? Lol

[Pfiltz]

I haven't read all the responses, but if you need some 4x5 boxes, PM me, and I'll send you some.

[Larry Kellogg]

What I'm confused about is... Everyone makes mistakes so I'm not busting your balls or anything, but if you don't have lab access then how do you get your film from the camera to the developing tank? If you have no bag and no dark closet?

I've always used a dark bag since I first started developing at home so I'm surprised you have no practical experience with changing bags/tents.

Anyway, what do I know? Lol

I'm using my lab guys at Sunshine Color Labs on 31st St. I have the Harrison changing tent for my loading and unloading. I have a couple of empty boxes from my lab guys so I unload into those and bring them to the lab. I just messed up with zipping the internal compartment on my first attempt so that I fogged two frames. My next two frames came out pretty good. I'll post a shot here. I scanned it in two chunks at 3200dpi, put them together in Photoshop, and have a 11kx12k pixel version, but I'll post the 600x500 version, LOL. Larry

[Larry Kellogg]

Ok, here is the first shot that came out for me. I think I had a five stop spread so I went with normal development. I have to get more confident about seeing a six stop spread to call for N-1 or a seven stop spread to call for N-2, if I understand the zone system correctly. I have a Pentax spot meter.

All comments welcome.

91925

[StoneNYC]

Ok, here is the first shot that came out for me. I think I had a five stop spread so I went with normal development. I have to get more confident about seeing a six stop spread to call for N-1 or a seven stop spread to call for N-2, if I understand the zone system correctly. I have a Pentax spot meter.

All comments welcome.

91925

Cool, wait can I clarify, you said you use the lab? Do you mean you use their lab to process it where you are the one developing? Or you drop it off and they do it with instructions?

[Larry Kellogg]

Cool, wait can I clarify, you said you use the lab? Do you mean you use their lab to process it where you are the one developing? Or you drop it off and they do it with instructions?

Yes, I drop it off with instructions because I don't have access to a darkroom. Sunshine Color Labs, 138 West 31st street. Great guys.

[Larry Kellogg]

Ok, my first attempt at a still life or a botanical, if you will. I used the QuickDisc thing to figure out the bellows extension. I want to try again on black velvet. It is difficult for me to figure out where to go with this shot. All comments welcome.

92227

[Larry Kellogg]

For anyone who gets to this part of the thread, I posted another orchid shot in the Images section, here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?101902-An-orchid-shot. The new shot is done with black velvet, causing the flowers to pop out.

[Robert Brummitt]

Oh, I can imagine the horror of seeing your camera go off a cliff! I heard a story of a DSLR shooter who backed up to the railing on a boat, where upon his camera backpack came unzipped and all of his expensive Canon lenses went, plop plop plop into the ocean.

Larry

I can beat your DSLR story with one that happen long before digital and it didn't happen to me. For a change! :-)
I went on a Orca sea kayak expedition in Vancouver BC. There were 15 of us plus guides following pods of the whales as they feed. One foggy morning one fellow wanted to do some fishing and some photography from his Kayak. So off he goes with a expensive rod and reel and his Nikon F3.
Later we heard from the shore, the man holler out. Then he came back to camp empty handed. It appeared he casted his line and was doing some photography when a bull Orca spy hopped next to the Kayak. The fellow was so shocked that he nearly dropped his reel. But saved it only to drop his Nikon into the drink. The holler we heard was from him as he watched the camera tail spin into the deep.
So when I think of my Wisner I think of the Nikon that sits near Whedbey Island

[Brian Ellis]

FWIW I've never used anything other than a quick release with every camera I've owned and never yet had one fail even though I carry the tripod over my shoulder with camera mounted quite a lot. That's many different cameras and thousands of photographs with every format from 35mm to 6x7 to 4x5 to 8x10 and in all sorts of different locales and conditions. IMHO with known brands and a little care you'll never have to worry about a quick release coming "undone."

I was going to give you a lot of advice about exposure and development based on some of the questions you've raised until I saw the two photographs you posted. If those are representative of what you're doing you don't need advice from anyone here, you're doing fine. Just keep on doing whatever it is you're doing.

Since you're using the zone system my only suggestion is to get one of the little zone system stickers for your Pentax meter if you don't already have one. Calumet used to sell them and they make using the zone system a lot easier IMHO.

[Larry Kellogg]

FWIW I've never used anything other than a quick release with every camera I've owned and never yet had one fail even though I carry the tripod over my shoulder with camera mounted quite a lot. That's many different cameras and thousands of photographs with every format from 35mm to 6x7 to 4x5 to 8x10 and in all sorts of different locales and conditions. IMHO with known brands and a little care you'll never have to worry about a quick release coming "undone."

I guess I'll take my chances and hope for the best. You could spend all your time worrying that the camera is going to fall off the tripod, only to back over it with the car.




I was going to give you a lot of advice about exposure and development based on some of the questions you've raised until I saw the two photographs you posted. If those are representative of what you're doing you don't need advice from anyone here, you're doing fine. Just keep on doing whatever it is you're doing.

Actually, I would be happy to hear all of your advice about exposure and development. I am just getting started and am trying to read and learn as much as possible. I am pretty happy with my first few shots, thanks for the compliment.



Since you're using the zone system my only suggestion is to get one of the little zone system stickers for your Pentax meter if you don't already have one. Calumet used to sell them and they make using the zone system a lot easier IMHO.

Funny you mention that, but I have one of those stickers on my Pentax meter. I bought this meter years ago and never got into large format photography. Now, I see how useful it is to have this thing and I'm glad that I did not sell it.

Larry

[Larry Kellogg]

Oh, I can imagine the horror of seeing your camera go off a cliff! I heard a story of a DSLR shooter who backed up to the railing on a boat, where upon his camera backpack came unzipped and all of his expensive Canon lenses went, plop plop plop into the ocean.

Larry

I can beat your DSLR story with one that happen long before digital and it didn't happen to me. For a change! :-)
I went on a Orca sea kayak expedition in Vancouver BC. There were 15 of us plus guides following pods of the whales as they feed. One foggy morning one fellow wanted to do some fishing and some photography from his Kayak. So off he goes with a expensive rod and reel and his Nikon F3.
Later we heard from the shore, the man holler out. Then he came back to camp empty handed. It appeared he casted his line and was doing some photography when a bull Orca spy hopped next to the Kayak. The fellow was so shocked that he nearly dropped his reel. But saved it only to drop his Nikon into the drink. The holler we heard was from him as he watched the camera tail spin into the deep.
So when I think of my Wisner I think of the Nikon that sits near Whedbey Island


Yikes, I would have dropped the camera and the rod and reel if an Orca came up to me. There is a French film: "Rust and Bone" about an Orca trainer. I won't give away anything else about this film but there are some incredible shots of Orcas. This film is not for the faint of heart.

Larry

[Brian Ellis]

I guess I'll take my chances and hope for the best. You could spend all your time worrying that the camera is going to fall off the tripod, only to back over it with the car. . . .

Good point. I've sent Linhof Technika cameras in for repair 3 or 4 times, never because the quick release gave way, always because I did something stupid (e.g. picking up the backpack and starting to put it on while the pocket that holds the camera is unzipped).

[StoneNYC]

Yikes, I would have dropped the camera and the rod and reel if an Orca came up to me. There is a French film: "Rust and Bone" about an Orca trainer. I won't give away anything else about this film but there are some incredible shots of Orcas. This film is not for the faint of heart.

Larry

Oh I meant to watch that for the SAG awards but I just couldn't bring myself to watch subtitles lol.

On a side note, my quick lock has a double lock, it's much better than a manfrotto one, I'm not worried, but I can see what you mean.

[Scott Davis]

I recently had my Seneca whole plate "black beauty" go over a waterfall, with lens and tripod attached. I had hiked to the top of the falls, taken a handful of shots, and was getting ready to descend back to the bottom. I turned to start unlimbering the gear to pack it to take down with me, brushed the tripod, and the whole kit unbalanced, pitched forward head first, fell 10 feet into the rocks at the top of the falls. The lens and lensboard came off and remained in the water at the top of the falls. The camera and tripod went over the falls, plunging another 40 feet. Amazingly enough, the camera survived, as did the tripod and head (an Induro CF-314 carbon fiber with a Gitzo pan-tilt head). The camera does need some work, as the rear standard got wrenched by the impact and some of the hardware that holds it to the bed got bent. Oh, and it needs a new ground glass. I was lucky that I was out with a camera club, and one of the members was wearing chest waders, so he was able to go into the pool at the bottom of the falls and retrieve the floating (!!!!) camera and tripod. The lens has a bent front filter ring, which isn't that big a deal as it is a 1930s Turner-Reich triple convertible which uses some wierd filter size (I think it takes series VII or somesuch), so I use one of those ultra-high-tech Lee gelatin filter holders (you know, the one with the variable diameter elastostatic adapter, aka a big rubber band). The shutter even still works after drying out, although the firing mechanism is a bit wonky.

But back to the question of attaching camera to tripod, I'd definitely recommend the standard screw over the quick release for anything bigger than medium format, because gravity and inertia (and wind-resistance) become more and more of a factor with any view camera as they get bigger.

And back to yet another thought about camera movements - once you start applying them, you'll find that most of the time you really don't need much at all to achieve what you're looking for. One reason a lot of older field cameras don't have a whole lot of movements is they didn't need them. If you're applying more than 10 degrees of swing/tilt, double-check your ground glass as it is probable you've applied too much. In the end, the ground glass doesn't lie - if it looks rectilinear there, it will be rectilinear on the film. You can tie the bellows of your Wisner in knots with the movements it has - very cool as a sales demo, but you'll probably never come close to that in any real-world situation. If you do a lot of small still-life or table-top photography, that's when you're most likely to need extreme movements.

[Larry Kellogg]

Thanks for this advice, Scott. I'm still getting the hang of using the movements. I have a few images in the Critique thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?98676-Images-FOR-CRITIQUE/page21). I think my verticals are off a little on the right side of the building photograph and need to figure out what I should have done, perhaps a little back swing? What do you think?

Sorry to hear about that mishap with your camera. I'll be careful. Sorry to say, all of my tripod heads came with a quick release plate, with no option for the screw in type.

By the way, I lived in Foggy Bottom for a number of years but did not shoot large format when I lived in DC.

[dpetersen]

If your Wisner is anything like mine, I had a problem with the front standard. The slider that holds your lensboard in place was held on by 2 small screws which had the annoying habit of loosening up. Before I had a lens fall out, I sent the front to Richard Ritter to fix this problem. I must say his remedy is very sturdy ad works like a charm. I don't recall the cost, but it wan't very expensive. I also had him add a bail to the back, which I would also recommend. All in ll the Wosner is a fine camera which will serve you well for many years to come. Good luck.
Dick Petersen

[Larry Kellogg]

Hello Dick,
Thanks for the information! I will make sure those two small screws on the front standard are screwed in tight. I will look into getting them fixed. Also, I like the idea of the bale, as it is hard to get a film holder slid in the back. The bale looks like it would make this camera a lot easier to use.

[dpetersen]

Larry,
Not really easier to use, but I had a small problem with moving the camera slightly when inserting the film holder. Not really a big deal but annoying. A friend had a Zone VI with a bail back which seemed to work well so I had R Ritter put one on mine. An improvement for sure and not that expensive. Otherwise, a very good camera. If it ever stops raining here I hope to get out and kill some silver halide crystals in the near future.
Don;t forget to close the shutter before pulling the darkjslide (something I NEVER do)
Dick Petersen

[Larry Kellogg]

Larry,
Not really easier to use, but I had a small problem with moving the camera slightly when inserting the film holder. Not really a big deal but annoying. A friend had a Zone VI with a bail back which seemed to work well so I had R Ritter put one on mine. An improvement for sure and not that expensive. Otherwise, a very good camera. If it ever stops raining here I hope to get out and kill some silver halide crystals in the near future.
Don;t forget to close the shutter before pulling the darkjslide (something I NEVER do)
Dick Petersen

Oh, I'm working my way through all of the common mistakes. I'm sure I'll mess up a shot by not closing the shutter at some point. Last week, I learned that too much front tilt can make the tops of your trees go out of focus, like in this shot:

94185

As for the bail or bale, however it is spelled, here is a short video that shows one on a Zone VI camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIbpaistdog I have also discovered that pulling the dark slide too vigorously can slant the film holder resulting in a tilted shot on the negative.

You can get some nice light after rain storms, no?

[bob carnie]

Larry I have the exact camera in mint condition, do you mind me asking approx what they are worth?, I am looking to trade mine with 4 lenses for a digital Camera I can convert to infared. I have some idea what they are worth but would be interested in your kit and how much you paid.

My wife is a long time infared shooter and we do not have any personal digital camera equipment *yet* She has a couple of complete Nikon film camera sets with many lenses and I have seen Sandy King and Sam Wang infared digital captures and I know she would love to continue on her work.

Not trying to hijack your thead but your camera is the exact kind we have and since we have a couple of 4x5 systems and 8x10 systems the Wisner may be up for trade.

thanks

Bob

[RichardRitter]

The red bellows is it leather? The red leather bellows on Wisner cameras would leak 4 stops of light in 5 minutes if the dark side is pulled and let the camera stand in sun light. Wisner knew about this.

Work in stormy weather yes you can get some nice photos. If the camera has leather bellows never get the bellows wet and put is away wet the leather will mildew and that would be the end of the bellows.

The quickest way to learn the camera and all it movements is to take a workshop that deals with view cameras. there is one being given at Peters Valley craft center July5th to the 9th.

[dpetersen]

The zone VI camera (the version in the video) are virtually identical to your Wisner with one major exception. The Wisner bellows are FAR superior to the Zone VI, IMHO. The bellows on my friend's Zone VI have became very stiff and the bag bellows are almost unusable. Mine however, are as supple as the day they were new. The basic cameras are virtually identical, being designed by Ron Wisner. That story varies also depending of who tells you about the Ron Wisner/Fred Picker spitting contest. Look into it sometime as it makes good reading.
Good luck
Dick Petersen

[Larry Kellogg]

Larry I have the exact camera in mint condition, do you mind me asking approx what they are worth?, I am looking to trade mine with 4 lenses for a digital Camera I can convert to infared. I have some idea what they are worth but would be interested in your kit and how much you paid.

My wife is a long time infared shooter and we do not have any personal digital camera equipment *yet* She has a couple of complete Nikon film camera sets with many lenses and I have seen Sandy King and Sam Wang infared digital captures and I know she would love to continue on her work.

Not trying to hijack your thead but your camera is the exact kind we have and since we have a couple of 4x5 systems and 8x10 systems the Wisner may be up for trade.

thanks

Bob

Hello Bob,
Well, a friend of mine sold me the Wisner. I think he sold it to me at a price I could not refuse in order to trick me into getting into large format photography, LOL. Once you start down that road, you never go back, and he knew it. Looking at the bay, the prices for Wisners are all over the map. They seem to trade from $600 with no lenses to $1200, and up, with lenses. Just search on Sold Listings.

To get the most money out of your kit, you should probably auction the lenses separately. The 8x10 Wisners go for a good price. I'm tempted but would be a nervous wreck with that cost per shot.

Good luck with putting together an infrared digital kit. Thanks for the references to Sandy King and Sam Wang. Interesting work! Those round captures are neat.

[bob carnie]

Thanks Larry

[Larry Kellogg]

The red bellows is it leather? The red leather bellows on Wisner cameras would leak 4 stops of light in 5 minutes if the dark side is pulled and let the camera stand in sun light. Wisner knew about this.

Hello Richard,
Yes, leather. The camera leaks that much light even when lined with that black silk? Huh. Well, I guess I can live with it for now but is it possible to buy replacements bellows for it? Are the bellows exactly the same as the ones on the Zone VI cameras?



Work in stormy weather yes you can get some nice photos. If the camera has leather bellows never get the bellows wet and put is away wet the leather will mildew and that would be the end of the bellows.

Ah, thanks for this tip! I will make sure to let the camera dry while open before putting it away when I shoot in the rain. The first guy who owned my Wisner managed to scrunch up the left side of the bellows. It was not me! I watched the Wisner unfolding video about ten times to make sure I would not scrunch up the right side. As far as I know, it is not possible to unscrunch the bellows, so I leave it alone.




The quickest way to learn the camera and all it movements is to take a workshop that deals with view cameras. there is one being given at Peters Valley craft center July5th to the 9th.

Yes, I'm still thinking about going but I'm a little held up on putting together an instant shot capability for the Wisner. I don't have any old Polaroid 4x5 stock and I don't have a back for the camera. Should I put together something for the smaller instant Fuji films? Is there darkroom availability at Peters Valley with the course or are we just working in the field?