TriX 320 annihilation drama

[ryanmills]

My current dev process (all at exactly 68 degrees) is presoak for a min in distilled water -> HC110 in distilled water @ 1:31 (520ml total volume) for 5:30 -> Ilford stop for one min -> ilford rapid fixer for 4 mins -> wash -> wash -> wash -> wash -> final wash in distilled with photoflo. It seems no amount of washing ever gets that bloody annihilation layer to clear. Worth noting I did a run with acros 100 and it came out perfect. Im pretty happy with HC110+TriX but I cant get the annihilation layer off. Do I need a stronger fix? Long prewash or a really good film washer?

At this point since im still testing im doing everyone one shot so its all fresh chems and im only doing 4 4x5 at at time.

[Erik Larsen]

Are you using trays, or tubes or tanks to develop? I have experienced the same thing as you and a solution that worked for me was to use hypo clear in a tray instead of my drum and you can watch the anti halation dye dissolve away in short order.
Regards
Erik

[ryanmills]

Sorry, should have pointed that out. Using 5x7 trays. I do have hypo clear but I dont have anything big enough to mix it up in yet. I can give that a try, how long do you soak in it?

[Erik Larsen]

Soak it till its gone. When it's happened to me it usually comes off in under a minute.

[Brian C. Miller]

Ryan, get a small plastic pail from the hardware store. Wash it out. Pour 1qt of water in it, and scratch a mark. Do that four more times, so there are five 1qt marks on the side. Keep that pail clean and just use it for mixing chemicals, like hypo clear and Xtol. Then you have something to mix the chemicals, and it didn't cost much at all.

The dye comes out of the film with soaking, it's just a matter of time for it to leach out.

[ryanmills]

I though about checking for 5 gallon buckets when I was there today but forgot, will have to keep that in mind for the future. I have some 16x20 trays I got to use as water baths but I found I dont really need them. Any benefit to letting film soak in water or or maybe hypo clear to get the annihilation off?

[jcoldslabs]

I find that whatever traces of anti-halation backing do not come off during fixing come off in the wash eventually. Agitation seems to be the key. If I put a processed sheet of film in a tray of water and rock it back and forth for a few minutes the negative usually clears fully. If it's true that a watched pot never boils, it also seems true that a watched sheet never clears!

Jonathan

[Sevo]

It seems to vary with local water, as I never have issues in town, but in our country house washing out can mean an extra hour of soaking, even though I'd consider the water there superior for tea. Perhaps it even is a matter of distilled (or more generally not hard enough) water - have you tried with tap water?

Extended washing, even for a hour or two, is harmless for black and white film, at least if the water is not warm. And as the dyes wash out that slow, a water change every 15 minutes is enough.

If you are dead positive the film has otherwise washed to completion (i.e. residual silver/hypo tests show nothing), you can also lay the sleeved film out in the sunlight - the stain bleaches within a few hours (at least if you haven't spent extra money on UV-blocking colour film sleeves).

[William Whitaker]

I thought this was a thread about the total destruction and obliteration of film.

[Sevo]

I cant get the annihilation layer off.

As has already been pointed out elsewhere, there is no annihilation layer, and strictly speaking, the pink stain is not the ANTI HALATION layer either - it is the sensitizer.

[Jac@stafford.net]

This might seem crazy, but after fixing and a good rinse, soak it again in developer, then wash.

[Jody_S]

I find the removal of said layer varies with the water temp of the wash. I've had to adjust using some hot water to get in the 75-80 degree range with some films, or the backing just never comes off.

[Jody_S]

And I also have occasionally wanted to obliterate film, to completely destroy any traces of a particularly bad shot. I recommend a wood stove for this, as you can watch your film curl up and melt, and the image disappear forever.

[Jan Pedersen]

And I also have occasionally wanted to obliterate film, to completely destroy any traces of a particularly bad shot. I recommend a wood stove for this, as you can watch your film curl up and melt, and the image disappear forever.

That could keep many of us warm for a long time. :)

[Ed Richards]

TMY-2 is also hard to clear. I increased my fix time to 14 minutes and that cleared up the pink.

[Brian C. Miller]

I though about checking for 5 gallon buckets when I was there today but forgot, will have to keep that in mind for the future. I have some 16x20 trays I got to use as water baths but I found I dont really need them. Any benefit to letting film soak in water or or maybe hypo clear to get the annihilation off?

Getting the dye out is just a matter of soaking the film in water. That's it, that's all there is to it. It just takes time in water. Change the water after five minutes, then 10 minutes after that. After 30 minutes of just soaking in water, the dye will be gone.

Also, the pail I mentioned is a bit over 1 gallon. You can use a five gallon bucket, but that's overkill and it's hard to measure liquids in that size. When mixing, you just want to stir the chemicals. Don't shake them, as doing that introduces too much oxygen into the chemistry, and it won't last due to oxidation.


TMY-2 is also hard to clear. I increased my fix time to 14 minutes and that cleared up the pink.

You are over-fixing your film. You just need to soak the film in water.

[Kevin Crisp]

Adding 3 minutes to the fixing time will help, with agitation. It should come out in the wash but it isn't going to be conventional short times of the old Tri-x.

[E. von Hoegh]

As has already been pointed out elsewhere, there is no annihilation layer, and strictly speaking, the pink stain is not the ANTI HALATION layer either - it is the sensitizer.

That could be spell-check, which we all know is the work of the antichrist.

[E. von Hoegh]

This might seem crazy, but after fixing and a good rinse, soak it again in developer, then wash.

Using a different dilution and longer developing time may help, too. I must say I've never had this problem with Tri-X. Edit - And I just reaslised why, the Tr-X I'm using has been frozen for the past 20+ years, duh, I'm not using the new stuff.

[MIke Sherck]

I suspect that the quality of the water you're using has something to do with the clearing time for TMY's backing. I have very hard water; tons of minerals, especially iron. Much of the backing comes of in the 2-minute pre-soak, a little more in the developer (D-76) and it's almost gone by the time it gets out of the fixer (Ilford, 5 minutes.) It's all gone after the wash. I've never had a problem getting rid of it; even without the pre-soak it's still gone by the time it's done washing, before the final rinse in distilled water and Kodak's anti-spotting stuff.

Mike

[Larry Gebhardt]

I've had issues with some older Tri-x 320 in Jobo drums not clearing (just a few splotches on the back of the film where it pressed to the drum). I found fixing it in a tray a second time helped. Washing doesn't seem to ever remove the dye. So maybe try fixing longer, or try a different fixer.

[Peter Gomena]

Fresh hypo clear will do it, as will a prolonged soak after washing as others have indicated.

[ryanmills]

That's probably my best auto correct to date, yes I meant anti-halation, not the devastation of flim, but never knew how to spell it. Thou someone said thats not the purple tint, so maybe im doing something else wrong. I will mix up a batch of hypo clear and add a longer soak. I have done my soaks with distilled water but I go thru it so fast with a wash that i went to tap water for the wash and I do my final rinse in a tray with photoflo and distilled water.

Funny side note, not shaving for a week and buying out a stores entire stock of 2 gallon jugs of distilled water will get looks of looks at the checkout like your about to cook up some meth and debating if they should call the cops.

[Sevo]

Thou someone said thats not the purple tint, so maybe im doing something else wrong.

As I said, a deep or even solid green stain on Efke (respectively blue on Fuji or grey on Kodak) may be the anti-halation layer dye - but you'll usually only run into that if you have a significant problem with sheets sticking to each other or the tank or tray wall, as a few seconds of exposure to developer or fixer will already remove it. Transparent pink, especially Kodak new Tri-X and T-Max, is the sensitizer. Which is notoriously hard to wash out (and seems to wash out better in harder water, so using distilled before the last wash is wasted). But the sensitizer stain does not seem to interfere with variable contrast printing, will eventually vanish after prolonged washing, and will in any case fade over the course of time (which can be sped up by exposing the film to UV rich light).

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have done my soaks with distilled water but I go thru it so fast with a wash that i went to tap water for the wash and I do my final rinse in a tray with photoflo and distilled water.

I use distilled water for everything except the wash. A chemist told me that hard water, such as I have, is best for washing film because the minerals help carry away the chemistry. In any event, all has gone well for decades using the practice.

A distiller might be a good investment, Ryan. I have that produces half a quart per hour. I just let it run in the background and empty the contents into a twenty-gallon water tap.

To make life just bit easier, I feed my distiller with water from our dehumidifier.

Prices for distillers are outrageous. Shop wisely. I paid $177 for one advertised today for $390 to $800.

[ryanmills]

@Sevo, so it seems i was trying to address the wrong issue. Is it worth it to add a longer fix or is just a longer wash required. Pretty much wash till its gone? I have trays big enough, would it be worth it to just let them soak for 30mins, an hour, etc?

Is it safe to turn on the lights after a few mins once its in the fixer? Wondering if its worth watching it in the fixer to see if its helping.

[Sevo]

@Sevo, so it seems i was trying to address the wrong issue. Is it worth it to add a longer fix or is just a longer wash required. Pretty much wash till its gone?

Just wash it. Time does help - when I went over to a environment friendly schedule of thirty minutes of washing in standing water with a water change every five minutes, the staining got significantly reduced compared to my earlier ten minutes in running water. And don't bother too much, it won't harm if there is some light staining left - I remember Kodak statements when T-Max was new that claimed that it even the full stain after a minimal wash cycle did not interfere with variable contrast paper.



Is it safe to turn on the lights after a few mins once its in the fixer? Wondering if its worth watching it in the fixer to see if its helping.

It is (almost) safe to turn on the light once the film is in the stop, and positively safe after the film is in an acid fixer and has been agitated for five seconds - most developers lose all activity in an acidic buffer, and even those that have some activity left are slowed down by magnitudes. But the stain does not dissolve faster in fixer than in water, so you need not pay extra attention to that phase in the process.

[E. von Hoegh]

That's probably my best auto correct to date, yes I meant anti-halation, not the devastation of flim, but never knew how to spell it. Thou someone said thats not the purple tint, so maybe im doing something else wrong. I will mix up a batch of hypo clear and add a longer soak. I have done my soaks with distilled water but I go thru it so fast with a wash that i went to tap water for the wash and I do my final rinse in a tray with photoflo and distilled water.

Funny side note, not shaving for a week and buying out a stores entire stock of 2 gallon jugs of distilled water will get looks of looks at the checkout like your about to cook up some meth and debating if they should call the cops.

Try not shaving or trimming for 2 1/2 months, then go to the mall to buy some ammunition.

[John Kasaian]

When I used the Unicolor drum I'd get the anti-halation layer off TMY pronto in the presoak. After about a minute of rolling about I'd dump out the dye stained water.

[Paul Hoyt]

I hang TRIX-320 in a window after they are dry and the UV in the Sun Light clears the residual pink from the negative.

Paul

[photobymike]

Orbit hypo clear..... thats all i use.... works every time ..simple .....double strength for 2 minutes vigorous agitation .....