fishing for long and skinny

[Mark_3632]

Okay, drew up preliminary plans for 7x17 and realized that that sucker is pretty big. I'm a visual learner. It is quite doable, and to tell you the truth it does not seem to be that hard. On a down side the expenses of running the camera are going to be a pain in the wallet. This will have to fall onto the back burner. I am still looking for that long skinny view though, that is able to be contact printed.

Here is the question. Do any of you shoot 4x10? If so how do you like it? And, have any of you shot color film in this format?

Looking at the cheap older 8x10's on the net makes this seem really doable.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Mark,

Yes, I shoot 4x10 and love the format. I shoot color transparency film in two different fashions. The first is "true 4x10" - meaning I cut the film in half in the dark prior to exposure, load it into 4x10 holders and shoot it with a 4x10 camera. The second is to shoot two 4x10 images on a single sheet of 8x10 film using conventional 8x10 holders, a split darkslide (like those sold by Bender and Toho) and an older 8x10 camera (Eastman Commercial All-Metal).

8x10 holders and a lot easier to find and cheaper than 4x10 holders. There are plenty of used 8x10 holders available on eBay at reasonable prices. To me, that's the key to shooting 4x10 is getting holders. The Canham 4x10 holders are well made and the most reasonably priced new holders (about $95 each). For comparison, new 8x10 Fidelity holders are about $60 each - and you only need half as many for the same number of shots.

Of course, shooting with a dedicated 4x10 camera usually means carrying around a smaller, lighter camera. So, that's a consideration as well. Of course, if you can get an ultralight 8x10, like the Phillips Explorer, you can have the best of both worlds - a lightweight camera and affordable holders.

Kerry

[Mark_3632]

How does the split darkslide work. I could not find a picture or mention of one in a google search. Nor mention of one on the bender site. My curiosity is piqued.

[Nick_3536]

http://www.toho-machine.co.jp/Panorama.htm

Not much of a picture I'm afraid.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Here is is on the Bender site, under 8x10" accessories:

http://www.benderphoto.com/4x10pa.htm

I made mine out of a spare darkslide. You can cut one yourself.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Mark,
Heres a link to a thread Todd Caudle posted on photo.net a while back:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003xgh

It shows his results using a split darkslide to get a pair of 6x12 (2x5) images on a single sheet of 4x5 film. To see some more of Todd's beautiful panoramic images, check out the panoramic section of his web site at:

http://www.toddcaudle.com/panoramic.htm

Kerry

[Mark_3632]

One darkslide, one straight edge, one mat cutter/box cutter and your in business. And they sell these things...Hmmmm...

Now for the million dollar question

has any one had light leaks or had light bleed from one shot into the next?

[Brian Vuillemenot]

I've just got back my first shots using a cut darkslide to shoot two 4X10's on a sheet of 8X10. I am quite pleased with the results. You just have to be very careful to keep track of which sides of each sheet are exposed to avoid double exposures. I put a little red dot sticker on each half of the film holder to denote that the film has been exposed (i.e., 4 dots per film holder of two sheets when they are all exposed). When you cut the darkslide, cut it so there is a quarter inch or so border between the exposures. Be conservative-if you have too wide of a margin, you can always go back and trim it later. Incidently, Bender no longer carries the 4X10 darkslides, but it's real easy to do it yourself. Another plus about using an 8X10 is that you don't have to cut film, and E6 processing will be cheaper. Good luck, and let us know how it works out for you!

[William Blunt]

Mark, I shoot 4x10 and really enjoy the format. I use a Wisner 4x10 Tech. with the back modified by Keith Canham to accept his holders. The camera is much lighter than my 8x10 and lens selection is better. About the same as carrying my 5x7 outfit. Never use color film so I can't address that.

[Ernest Purdum]

I once made a split darkslide for a Toyo 4" X 5" holder. Using a "nibbler", I cut out just the opening for about 1 3/4" X 5". I then found out that the Toyo light trap was also a split darkslide trap. I had to cut away the strip at the bottom of the darkslide in order to get it out of the filmholder. Sometimes we learn the hard way.



Several 8" X 10" camera backs (and a few 5" X 7" backs) were grooved for a "splitter", just a board which could be slid from one side to the other or from top to bottom for 2 on 8" X 10". The grooves had leaf springs in them to keep the board from sliding by gravity. The splitter, which nearly always gets lost over the years, had a relieved area, or partial holes, for ease in switching position. They were dimensioned for 5" X 8", but it would be easy to make one up for a nominal 4" X 10". It wouldn't be nearly as easy, but it would still be feasible to add a spacer incorporating the grooves to an ungrooved back.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Ernest,

Deardorff also made 4x10 slider boards for their 8x10 camera backs. In fact, that's how I got started shooting 4x10. When I sold my Deardorff, I kept the 4x10 slider board. I still have it. It also fits some 8x10 Kodak backs. It's a very simple piece of wood, painted black with a simple rabbet joint on each end, and two recessed "thumb holes" (not really holes, as they don't go all the way through the board) for sliding it back and forth.

If I remember correctly, the grooves for the 4x10 slider are offset from the grooves for the 5x8 slider. This would allow using one of each to shoot four 4x5 images (minus margins) on a single sheet of 8x10 film. Kind of a poor man's reducing back.

Kerry

[Wayne Firth]

Mark,

I shoot 4x10 and think it is a great format. When using a true 4x10 the camera is very lightweight compared to an 8x10. Sounds like you are willing to build a camera. Be aware that the film holders are not a standard size so settle on a brand of holder before building the camera. The Canham holders are a good deal. I have a Canham camera but find it too fussy to use so I built a simple one from Graphic parts a new bellows and some wood working skills. It is an extremely lightweight camera. Here are some photos of the homemade 4x10 camera with 121 mm SA lens.

http://www.silverlight.net/cameras/4x10%20graphic/4x10%20Graphic.html

[Mark_3632]

Wayne that is nifty. Is the back wood? It matches the camera so well I can't really tell what it is made of.

mark

[Jim Galli]

Hi Mark. Just a brain teaser. 5" Aerial roll film is available most any time on Ebay and in some fantastic emulsions I might add. Have S&S build you some 5X14? 15? 16? sky's the limit? holders and build a camera around them. Korona once made a 5X12 banquet but they're very hard to find. The aerial film is most prevelant in Panatomic X and Plus X. Comes in different length rolls like 120 ft. and I even have a 350 ft roll. The only differences are that Kodak increased the red sensitivity so that when using filters to cut through atmosphere you don't have to take such a speed hit. Most of it is 4 mil polyester base. I use the stuff in my 5X7 and am working on a #6 Cirkut camera that will also use it. Anybody have a 5X12 to sell. I want one bad.

[CXC]

Hey, all you 4x10 enthusiasts, do you always contact print or do you enlarge? Sounds kinda small...

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

For prints, I "enlarge" to either 8x20 or 12x30 digitally using a flatbed scanner and an Epson 2200 printer. One nice thing about the 4x10 format is that you can get rather large prints using a relatively affordable desktop inkjet printer.

On the other hand, I've seen a number of 4x10 contact prints from other photographers. With the right subject and materials, the results can be exquisite. A print doesn't always have to be huge to hold one's attention.

Kerry

[Mark Sampson]

Jim, for quite a while Lens&Repro has been advertising a 5x12 camera for sale, although they don't mention a brand name.

[MattO]

I am a bit confused about the actual field operation ....

If you cut the dark slide so that the handle is connected to 1/2 of the slide - what about the other half? How is that covered - just the 1/2 piece of slide floating inside the groove? If so, then you cannot utilize that 1/2 of the film until making a trip to the darkroom/tent? Seems pretty cumbersome.

[Juan V.]

I saw the Lens & Repro 5x12 a few weeks ago. It's a Korona that someone modified with steel brackets, cutting the regular uprights, to allow front tilt. Other than the modification, which is well done, it's in pretty good shape. I believe it came with two film holders. It's quite light and compact compared to my 8x10 Korona. I thought about getting it but didn't want to deal with finding/making 5x12 film, and didn't feel it was really big enough for contact prints that I would like. Your mileage may vary. Nifty little camera though.

[Ernest Purdum]

MattO, You use the cut dark slide by pulling out the regular slide and putting in the cut one. After making the first exposure, you flip the cut slide so that the film portion already exposed is covered. When finished, you replace the regular darkslide.



It may help to color code the cut slide handle, red and blue for example. If you always expose with the red side first, the chances of error are reduced. Also, the chance of confusing the cut slide with the regular slide are lessened.

[MattO]

Thanks Ernest -

You'd think that after a number of years with LF, that I would have been able to figure that out! Another senior moment............

[Mark_3632]

That 5x12 at lens and repro is on the steep side but it comes with holders. It is definately out of my spending limit. I can definately say my options are opening up. What would be the normal lens length for a 12 inch width, 322mm? I've got the spare parts to a few 2d 5x7's at home that could be modified easily. This is looking more and more doable all the time.

I did a size comparison between the 4x10 and the 5x12. The size of the 5x12 negative would be much more viewable as a contact print. The film would not be as economical though nor as easy to deal with. Keep in mind that I have not priced the mondo rolls of film Jim mentioned

Does S&S have a website or contact information?

Jim How do you cut rolls that that size?

That would be one hell of a roll film back :)

[Jim Galli]

Matt O. When you cut up an 8X10 slide for 4X10 you leave the portion of the slide that goes into the light trap intact. So you end up with kind of an L shape dark slide. You want the light trap always filled up though. Mark and others, I made the folks at Lens & Repro a very fair offer for that outfit about 6 months ago but it's their price or the highway. Had forgotten about it in the meantime. They had one a couple of years ago with 10 nice holders for $1999. Actually a better buy because of all the holders. That time cash flow got me:{(( Just didn't have the cash and they won't let you do a 3 payments lay-away etc. The roll film is easy to manage. I just roll it out in the dark to a set stop and cut it with a good roll cutter. Yes, dust and all of the extra handling is a headache. Have to have a pretty clean environment.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Mark, What ever format you decide (4x10, 5x12, etc.), I highly recommend you consider the holders first. IMHO, in non-mainstream formats, the availability of affordable (or at least attainable) holders is of paramount importance. For me, while choosing a camera may be more exciting, getting the holders is far more important. I learned that the hard way the first time I tried 4x10. The second time around, I bought the holders first, before I even started looking for a camera. The most beautiful camera in the world is useless without holders for your film.

BTW, in 4x10, there are TWO different "standard" sizes for the holders. The Wisner 4x10 cameras use holders based on the older 4x10 X-Ray holders (made by Lisco, Fidelity and Kodak more than 30 years ago). It can be REAL hard to find holders in this size. The most common are the Mido II holders (that are not the best holders ever made) that were sold for the Wisner cameras about 10 years ago. While the concept is good, the quality of construction wasn't the best and light leaks can be a big problem (I speak from experience). The Mido holders were discontinued several years ago after the death of their maker. Ron Wisner does have 4x10 wooden holders listed on his website, but I haven't seen any in person, nor have I talked to anybody who has. So, I can't comment on the quality or availability.

All the other commercially available 4x10 cameras (Canham, Lotus and Altview) use holders that are wider than the Wisner X-Ray style holders. Holders in this size are readily available from Keith Canham (as mentioned above ~$95 each and very well made) and Lotus (wooden, beautiful, well-made and expensive - www.lotusviewcamera.at/accessories/sheetfilmholder_e.html). AWB (Alan Brubaker - www.filmholders.com - check out Alan's web site for some nice photos of his holders in various sizes) and S&S (Sandy King and Sam Wang) will custom make wooden holders in a variety of formats. Such custom made holders are justifiably expensive (the labor involved in making 4x10 or 5x12 holders is the nearly the same as making 11x14 or 12x20 holders). I was fortunate to purchase several used Lotus 4x10 holders at a very reasonable price. If I was looking to buy new holders today, I'd buy the Canham holders as they are readily available and represent the best value.

If you do end up with a Wisner camera and can't find any holders to fit, Keith Canham will modify your camera to accept his holders.

Kerry

[Wayne Firth]

Mark,

Yes, the camera back is made of wood. I had an old 8x10 back that I used as a model and built the back to fit the modern Lotus and Canham holders. I then used the springs and hardware from the 8x10 back. Like Kerry, I got a good deal on a batch of Lotus holders for the price of Canham holders. That was just luck, though. I think the camera cost less than $200 minus lens and most of that was the cost of bellows. Junk Graphics are easy to find and are great to build odd cameras. I have built several from parts including an 8x10 Hobo type camera. You can build a Hobo for less than a $100 or so and it will focus.

I like contact prints but I have been drifting away from the darkroom and now I usually scan them for enlargements. For me, decent sized film, a good scanner and a good printer is pretty hard to beat these days. Big film is still your friend even in these digital days.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Just FYI, there is currently an 8x10 Deardorff on eBay that includes both 4x10 and 5x8 slider boards. I won't bother posting the link (as the auction ends tomorrow), but one of the pictures shows the slider boards. That will give folks an idea what they look like and how they work. Just do an eBay search on "Deardorff 8x10" and you should find it. The listing will still be available for 30 days after the auction ends, but the seller might remove his pics.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Wayne,

A quick question on your camera... Do you recall if the t-distance (location of the film plane) is the same for the 4x10 Lotus/Canham holders as for standard 8x10 holders? I'd measure it myself, but don't have an 8x10 holder handy at the moment. If it is the same, it would be fairly easy to modifiy an 8x10 back to use with 4x10 holders as the only diminsion that would have to change would be the width. Is that how you made the back for your camera? If that is all that's required, there are always orphan 8x10 backs (Deardorff, Kodak, Burke & James) etc. showing up on eBay. The Kodak and Burke & James backs usually go for around $100, sometimes less. Seems like about the easiest, least expensive way to get build a dedicated 4x10 camera for someone with basic woodworking skills.

Kerry

[Wayne Firth]

Kerry,

It's been a few years but I think I did measure. I didn't worry too much because the Canham holders are made from Fidelity parts. Anyway, there are no focus problems with either type of holder. Just lucky I guess although it would be good to check before building. The Lotus holders are a beautiful thing but I wouldn't want to pay full price for a bag of holders. I considered cutting down old Ansco holders because they can be disasembled but it looked like it was beyond me Then I was going to cut down a Deardorff back but I thought the back would be weakened too much so I made mine from scratch using the 8x10 for measurements and hardware. I made the back out of solid wood and did the milling with a router. The glass holder is a frame and then milled. The camera is very lightweight and could very easily be a handheld. For lenses, I mainly use the 121 SA and the 240 G-Claron. I make all of my cameras with Graphic front ends so that I can standardize on Graphic lens boards. Old front standards are easy to find find for a few bucks.

I have been shooting long skinny pictures almost exclusively for several years since I got hooked on 4x10 after seeing Jay Dusard's wonderful book "Open Country." He did that mostly with a homemade "brick" camera and cast-off x-ray holders. I also have made a few 6x12 cm cameras with dedicated lenses and helical focus mounts and Horseman backs including one camera using your long lost film back.

[Darin Cozine]

Just a word of warning on the split darkslide. I found that I was not able to use one (on my 4x5 press camera) with my 65mm lens. The bellows did not have enough flex to allow for the rise required. The lens could not be centered on the 2x5 strip. I could use a normal lens for the 2x5, but why?

[Øyvind Dahle]

My IKEA-MACKIS box camera is 6x12", but uses no filmholders, only a flat plane, maybe for paper to be developed and scanned. Both my Apo-gerogon 210 and 240 will fit _inside_ with the aperture preset, using a lenscap for shutter.

Send an e-mail to receive pictures. Øyvind:D