Perversions of Process

[Henry Ambrose]

The recent thread on cropping prompts me to expand that question into a new topic. We went from a simple query about cropping after the exposure to the aggravation of having others crop your work. Which seems pretty cruel (yes I know its not unusual and I know commercial work is all about money and I could crop my pic to fit their layout if needed but do THEY have to do it for me?) Anyway, would you crop your kids kindergarten drawing to make it look better?

I think advertsing work might be one example, where the disconnect between "what I saw and photographed and want to show you" and the desire of the clients to have the photographer execute their hackneyed, committee decided, market driven idea illustrated in a way to appeal to the target audience. The pay is good, but boy is it a horrible perversion of my version of a natural photographic process. And I'll admit I've done a fair amount of working/hoping for more of this work to come to me, but less and less as time goes by.

Or from a slightly different angle, I find that the entire train of seeing, recording on film and then printing on paper and delivering that to another human is "right and proper". On the other hand, I am left somewhat chilled by the proposition of shooting perfect chromes, delivering digital files for repro in a catalog, or sending in raw film to be edited by others as the finished work. I've done all this and will do some of them again but the difference in feeling is immense to me.

I really like to make "my" picture and hold it and agree with myself that I made what I had visualized and made it well. Maybe hand it to someone and have them like it as much as I do or even give me money because they like it enough to keep it. Which probaly explains why I like working for architects and handing them nice photos of their work. At the same time I enjoy giving for free the next door neighbors a photo of their baby just as much if not more.

I suppose my question says a lot about how I feel and think about photography and might not make sense to others. And I certainly mean no offense to anyone who sees it or does it differently.

Anyway here's the question - What do you think are the most harmful, perverting things that occur in your photographic process?

Or maybe the flip side - what is your most favorite way to do your photography? What makes your process sing for you?

I'll stop babbling now......

[Darin Cozine]

I missed the thread on image hacking. But be aware that ads are made by graphic designers. They use a mix of text, graphics, and photographs to create a collage. This is meant to capture attention and present the product to an audience. Thats what advertising is all about.. has nothing to do with corporate power plotting to surpress the creativity of photographers.

[Dave Schneider]

If you do it for creative reasons where you are the only and ultimate judge of quality then you are an artist. If you are performing a function to meet the needs of someone else then it's a job. Why get so reved up over this? When you are hired to execute someone's "hackneyed, committee decided, market driven idea" you are doing a job for them.

Think of it this way, if you hire someone to paint your house white you expect them to paint it white. What if the painter were to chastise you for your poor taste in color, chide you for not fitting into the aura of the neighborhood, etc. Had you hired an architect or a designer you would welcome the input, but you hired a painter.

As photographers we tend to think of ourselves as the artist and the creative mind. If you want work you'll paint the house white.

[Steve J Murray]

I look at this this way: If making a photograph for someone else is like writing ad copy, then making a photograph for yourself is like writing poetry.

Its two different things. If you are doing the latter, there shouldn't be anything "perverting" the photographic process. If you are working for someone else, you use your creativity and talent to do a good job for them.

[Robert J Cardon]

Good points, and it should be noted that apparently authors have the same problems with publishers butchering their work, leaving things out (cropping) and changing things. Ditto musicians not producing their own recordings.

I suppose getting paid is critical, but I can imagine how professionals become frustrated by knowing that what was presented to the public eye was not what they envisioned, or all it could have been. I've seen a lot of nice LF color images bleeding out to the page edges on coffee table books (very liberal cropping) and it hurts the image.

From an amatuer perspective, friends will offer up different suggestions for cropping, contrast, color balance, and such, and occasionally their ideas result in a better image than what I have envisioned.

RJ

[Kirk Gittings]

I love creating images. There is nothing more rewarding for me. I love teaching adult students who really want to learn from you. I hate the selling, marketing, p.r.ing, negotiating prices, collecting money, pretending that I like you or find you interesting because you might buy a print etc. etc. ad nauseum that goes with making a living in this business. I hate university students who are only in your class to get another 3 credits. I hate dust. I hate wind. I love the shiver that goes up your spine when a composition comes together on the ground glass. I love it when I get an assignment next to somewhere truely interesting, that I have wanted to photograph for years, and I can go on their dime. I love it when the checks show up in the mail so I can pay some bills or buy some equipment.

I love a full tank of gas and a cooler full of unexposed film holders, a few days off and some storm clouds on the horizon, with no where in particular to go. Just go forth and follow the light.

[Dave Henry]

My hat's off to Darin and Dave. Beautifully written! I have been a commercial/professional photographer over 30 years and have shot thousands of assignments. If I had as thin of a skin as I sense on many of the replies to similar questions on this forum, I probably would have jumped off Half Dome long ago. Frankly, I could care less what an Art Director does with my "art" as long as the check clears. I make my suggestions but, it's ultimately someone else's decision.

My day job as a photographer with a major daily newspaper deals with editors and graphic artists every day. I put my .02 in but again, if the check clears every other week, well, it's their paper.

As my idol Ansel once said, assignments from "within" are a different story. My feeling is that when someone purchases one of my prints, they agree with "me" this time. If they consider it "art", God bless them... as long as the check clears. Last year I sold a set of prints to a buyer in Southern California that flew me, at his expense, to his framer for me to "supervise" the framing and then the hanging of them in his home and office. He called me an artist but to me is was a nice sale and affirmation of my personal vision and style of photography.

To some it may seem cold but I've never been able to put "artist" on a deposit slip. You are only an artist if others see you as such. Too many photographers proclaim themselves as artists but I guess that is another discussion entirely.

My suggestion to anyone reading this thread is stop worrying about things you can't control. Develop a thicker skin and don't take everything personally. Stop shooting test charts, worrying about brands or sweating MTF curves and get out and start making images. If Ansel and Edward could do it with their equipment, what's our excuse. Let others decide if you're an artist or not. Your images will speak for themselves.

Happy shooting!

[Dave Henry]

Now my hat's off to Kirk! Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!

It's all about getting through the drudge of business to carve out those precious days of personal shooting isn't it?

[John D Gerndt]

Anyway here's the question - What do you think are the most harmful, perverting things that occur in your photographic process? Or maybe the flip side - what is your most favorite way to do your photography? What makes your process sing for you?

If I must answer about process, the biggest perversion is trying to please someone.

Have you guessed I don’t make money at this? Hey, all you guys making money: $mile!

I like to make money too and I can provide what makes someone happy. That is not harmful or perverting, why that is not even photography to me! I’ve done it a few dozen times; I prefer plumbing. It pays better, the tools are cheaper, the hours are better and I am saving water instead of wasting it.

The best thing about the process is the surprise. Surprise is something you don’t want when you are trying to please a specific set of demands. I like the revelation that something I was attracted to for no particular reason turns out to continue to attract me as an image, for hours and years to come. If someone else likes it, that is a bonus, another surprise!

Cheers!

[tribby]

as a copy editor and layout designer i say to all you thenthetive photogs and moody writers... eat my shorts.

as an ex-thenthetive photog and moody writer i say, why the hell do you think i became an editor/designer?

so i din't have to put up with people like me,

me

p.s. i tried doing IT for a living. IT gave me ulcers.

p.p.s. dear gawd, what have i become?

[Henry Ambrose]

I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, but I guess I did anyway. And I'm not some "sensitive artist type" dressed in all black, wearing a beret and smoking imported cigarettes. Maybe I should have titled the thread "What flavor do you like?"

It seemed at the time an interesting question to float as I'd just come back from a job that allowed a great deal of freedom and I was kind of rejoicing in that and at the same time contrasting it to those jobs that were less enjoyable. Kind of "wow I wish I had more of these jobs and why do those others even exist" frame of mind.

I didn't mean that graphic designers were bad people or that employers should be happy to pay me for doing it "my way" instead of theirs. Nor did I mean to imply that "corporate power" was the root of all my problems. Trust me, I understand this about the world, I'm a real capitalistic kinda guy. And having written that I will add that really I do want it MY way, all the time, everytime. Not that it would be good for me, but thats another thread.... (no not really)

I'm also thinking of the possibility of "work" not having to be a drudge and a seperate, compartmentalized way of making only money. It might be possible to have work and life meld into one harmonious lump. I see glimpses of this on occaision.

What I am really looking for is a discussion about process, things that get in the way and things that bring joy. How do you like to make pictures?

But don't worry too much about this thread because soon we'll have a post asking "what size hole is needed for a No 3 shutter" or "how should I clean my bellows" ; >) (winking smiley face)

Best to all and thanks for answering.

[Leonard Metcalf]

One of the hardest things is getting oh so very excitted because you previsualised a photograph and you wait oh so expectantly till it rises from the darkroom trays, or when it returns from the lab only to find it so different from what you imagined. Or even not there at all...

Then this other photograph (probably just as compeled to take) turns out to be just so stunning.

OR

Someone else telling to to print one from your contacts, and discovering that you have overlooked a wonderful photograph...

There is magic in discovery... I love unexpected discoveries..

The unexpected is the magic, but it can also be the misery... I try to tell myself that it is just meant to be, and not to worry about what I didn't get, but to get excitted about what I did catch.

I'm with Kirk... hate wind, dust, and making obvious mistakes... (like not realigning the front swing after the last photograph and ruining the next)... love the magic that swirls, the lost time when I am engrossed in taking or printing (a definition of happiness)...

And most importantly the endless wandering, searching, looking, trying to find that magic photograph (as you can tell I love wandering the wilderness)... I sometimes even wonder if photography is just my excuse to go bush...

[Donal Taylor]

"One of the hardest things is getting oh so very excitted because you previsualised a photograph and you wait oh so expectantly till it rises from the darkroom trays, or when it returns from the lab only to find it so different from what you imagined."

Previsualise? Okay if you previsualised the photograph - explain to me then at what point you acutally visualised it?

[Bob._3483]

I think we can probably blame Mr A. Adams of California for "previsualise"... Excellent teacher and photographer, pianist and writer - not quite so hot with the English language... (just don't get me started on "lense" ;-). Ho hum....

Cheers,

[Paul Kierstead]

Hmmm...


Good points, and it should be noted that apparently authors have the same problems with publishers butchering their work, leaving things out (cropping) and changing things.

This is interesting. I read a lot of "popular fiction". I have read a lot of authors from when they started their early work and on into their careers. There is certainly a phenomena for the ones who get quite a bit success: Early books are trimmed nicely down by editors to a sensible length, are nice and coherent and pretty good. The author gets some success, demands less editorial bashing. Books get much longer, become incoherent and go downhill steadily. Fact is, IMO, most of these authors don't know better then their editors. Sure they are much better writers, but editing is an extremely important part of the process as well and -- in come cases -- better done by others.



So who is to say that the photographer is the best to determine the final product? I am not convinced this is always true.

[Paul Metcalf]

Along with Kirk's cooler full of unexposed film (eventually exposed, of course!), I wouldn't mind a cooler full of cold ones (mind numbingly cold, in fact).

Recent article about cleaning the Mona Lisa adds to this discussion: how do we know what the original really looked like to know that we've "restored" it to its original condition? What is original?

I only hope that someday people will be having these sort's of discussions about my pictures...