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View Full Version : HC-110 + Tr-Xi Pan 320 dilutions and times



ryanmills
15-Feb-2013, 18:26
Bit of a sanity check as I am rather new to darkroom work. Going to take a stab at HC-110 + TriX 320 for 4x5 sheets in a Patterson 5x7 tray. 4 at a time to start with the normal shuffle.

I was going to use the times from: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

I'm planning for 75 degrees using dilution E, in my case since i'm doing it in trays I was going to start with 1000ml in the tray so with a ratio of 1:47 I believe that means I need 21.2ml of of concentrate add to 1000ml of water. Dev time would still be 5 mins, agitating 5 seconds every 30 seconds. That sound right?

jayabbas
15-Feb-2013, 18:58
Dilution ratio is spot on. Sounds like you are ready to shuffle. Unscientifically we used to presoak ( actually a dunk in water with 5-10 drops of Photoflo per 1000 ml ) . This helped immensely in avoiding airbell type pinhole defects that can happen when dry film is immersed in the developer and initial agitation fails to dislodge some sort of " crapola". A very rare problem in tray shuffling , but "Photoflo" helps avoid minor shuffle scratching on that thar soft emulsion.

Kevin Crisp
15-Feb-2013, 19:04
Not sure what you mean on agitation. You are going to go through the stack once every 30 seconds, and antipate it would take you 5 seconds to do that?

ryanmills
15-Feb-2013, 19:10
I forgot to ask about that. With tri-x and hc-110 should I presoak? I do have a bunch of photoflo, your saying to use in the prewash? Do I still just need a drop or so for 1000ml? I have never really read how much to use, i just see people put a tiny drop in.



Dilution ratio is spot on. Sounds like you are ready to shuffle. Unscientifically we used to presoak ( actually a dunk in water with 5-10 drops of Photoflo per 1000 ml ) . This helped immensely in avoiding airbell type pinhole defects that can happen when dry film is immersed in the developer and initial agitation fails to dislodge some sort of " crapola". A very rare problem in tray shuffling , but "Photoflo" helps avoid minor shuffle scratching on that thar soft emulsion.

jayabbas
15-Feb-2013, 19:48
All we would do would be to dunk the film sheet in a vertical tank of 1000 ml or so of water with 5 to ten drops of "Photoflo" 600 . All you are looking for is that your sheet of film is ready to take the developer that you are introducing to the surface of the Per say , we did not soak but we let it " get wet" . If you have ever done roll film tank process you might remember " a sharp rap on the tank after filling with developer will help dislodge air bubble " hangerons" .

ryanmills
15-Feb-2013, 19:54
Ok so just a quick dip then into the dev? I was reading about Jock Sturges shuffling 16 8x10's at a time. and using tons of photoflow to avoid scratches. I guess he must have been doing that in the presoak. Does anyone know if adding a lot in the presoak would effect dev time at all?




All we would do would be to dunk the film sheet in a vertical tank of 1000 ml or so of water with 5 to ten drops of "Photoflo" 600 . All you are looking for is that your sheet of film is ready to take the developer that you are introducing to the surface of the Per say , we did not soak but we let it " get wet" . If you have ever done roll film tank process you might remember " a sharp rap on the tank after filling with developer will help dislodge air bubble " hangerons" .

jayabbas
15-Feb-2013, 20:41
Ok so just a quick dip then into the dev? I was reading about Jock Sturges shuffling 16 8x10's at a time. and using tons of photoflow to avoid scratches. I guess he must have been doing that in the presoak. Does anyone know if adding a lot in the presoak would effect dev time at all?

You are not doing 8x10 or are you ? 45 is a different animal than 810. Hone in on 4x5. All you are looking for when using " Photo flo" is to break surface tension on the actual surface of the film to allow the developer to to diffuse into the layers that love the developer. It's just a surfactant that allows the developer agent to get everywhere quickly and efficiently. I think of it as a primer when you paint a car. Everything is even so that when you apply the good stuff it will take it evenly and without problems.

Peter Lewin
15-Feb-2013, 20:41
Ryan: There are a few things going on in this thread. First, there is a long thread on pre-soaking somewhere else in this sub-forum, where ultimately half of us believe in pre-soaking, and half of us don't. Because I normally use PMK, and Hutchings (the inventor and guru of PMK) says to pre-soak, I do. So when I process Tri-X in HC-110, I still pre-soak, just following the same routine I'm used to. Seems to work fine. I've never heard of using Photoflo in the pre-soak, just a bit of Kodalk. Which of course doesn't say it isn't a good idea, just something I've never come across before. But in a real pre-soak, as I do, you place the sheets in the pre-soak tray one by one, then shuffle through the stack periodically (this isn't agitation, you just want the emulsion to soak up water evenly), they stay in the pre-soak tray a couple of minutes, then get transferred to the developer tray. Again a variation in approaches: some people transfer the sheets one by one, I just pick up the entire stack and move it over, and give it one quick shuffle before setting into the proper timing routine (see next paragraph).

However, Kevin's question seems more important: what do you mean by 5 minutes of agitation every 30 seconds? In shuffle processing, the agitation for each sheet is when you move that sheet from the bottom of the stack to the top. So with 4 sheets and desiring agitation each 30 seconds, you would move the bottom sheet to the top every 7 seconds. That means you would work your way through the 4 sheet stack once every 28 seconds, and each negative is being agitated once every 28 seconds (i.e. each sheet is getting agitation as close to every 30 seconds as the math allows, in reality it isn't that precise, but the idea is to get through the stack once in each 30 second period). With PMK, which suggests agitation at 15 second intervals, you would re-calculate, and to get through the stack each 15 seconds, you would move the bottom negative every 4 seconds (so 4 sheets, 16 second agitation, close enough).

Happily, once you get the hang of it, you don't need all these words...

jayabbas
15-Feb-2013, 21:57
Ryan: There are a few things going on in this thread. First, there is a long thread on pre-soaking somewhere else in this sub-forum, where ultimately half of us believe in pre-soaking, and half of us don't. Because I normally use PMK, and Hutchings (the inventor and guru of PMK) says to pre-soak, I do. So when I process Tri-X in HC-110, I still pre-soak, just following the same routine I'm used to. Seems to work fine. I've never heard of using Photoflo in the pre-soak, just a bit of Kodalk. Which of course doesn't say it isn't a good idea, just something I've never come across before. But in a real pre-soak, as I do, you place the sheets in the pre-soak tray one by one, then shuffle through the stack periodically (this isn't agitation, you just want the emulsion to soak up water evenly), they stay in the pre-soak tray a couple of minutes, then get transferred to the developer tray. Again a variation in approaches: some people transfer the sheets one by one, I just pick up the entire stack and move it over, and give it one quick shuffle before setting into the proper timing routine (see next paragraph).

However, Kevin's question seems more important: what do you mean by 5 minutes of agitation every 30 seconds? In shuffle processing, the agitation for each sheet is when you move that sheet from the bottom of the stack to the top. So with 4 sheets and desiring agitation each 30 seconds, you would move the bottom sheet to the top every 7 seconds. That means you would work your way through the 4 sheet stack once every 28 seconds, and each negative is being agitated once every 28 seconds (i.e. each sheet is getting agitation as close to every 30 seconds as the math allows, in reality it isn't that precise, but the idea is to get through the stack once in each 30 second period). With PMK, which suggests agitation at 15 second intervals, you would re-calculate, and to get through the stack each 15 seconds, you would move the bottom negative every 4 seconds (so 4 sheets, 16 second agitation, close enough).

Happily, once you get the hang of it, you don't need all these words...

jayabbas
15-Feb-2013, 22:15
Yes, as Peter states that once you get the hang of the whole game , these words will not be needed. My take has always been to make the process work for you , you must look at your total unique set of circumstances and tweak them after a bit of practice. Optochemical processes have never been set in stone and this is what makes it like heaven & hell --- heaven when you hit the bell and hell when you struggle . I wish you well at hitting the bell.

ryanmills
15-Feb-2013, 22:44
As for the shuffle, I just mistyped my math after reading off the other page. I meant to say im going to shuffle the stack once every 30 seconds at the same speed I would if it was 4, 8 etc. I'm basing that off the youtube videos that really showed the process in detail. I really don't have much experience so I just plan to tinker with that using multi dup shots and see what I get. I am a little worried if I do something like two sheets at a time just to test, how am I going to dup that with 4 sheets, 8 sheets etc and much it really effects it. For example if it takes me 3-4 seconds to shuffle a single photo so every 30 seconds and they sit the rest of the time how much difference is it when I do 8 and it takes long to shuffle and spends less time sitting. I think im going to presoak simply because I plan to follow the videos as closely as I can and will see if it even matters.

I think I will ask about photoflo in the pre-soak in a different thread and see if anyone else does it. I have been lucky enough to chat with jock a few times but I really don't want to bother him with such a silly question. Not sure if its a trade secret or just black magic.


Ryan: There are a few things going on in this thread. First, there is a long thread on pre-soaking somewhere else in this sub-forum, where ultimately half of us believe in pre-soaking, and half of us don't. Because I normally use PMK, and Hutchings (the inventor and guru of PMK) says to pre-soak, I do. So when I process Tri-X in HC-110, I still pre-soak, just following the same routine I'm used to. Seems to work fine. I've never heard of using Photoflo in the pre-soak, just a bit of Kodalk. Which of course doesn't say it isn't a good idea, just something I've never come across before. But in a real pre-soak, as I do, you place the sheets in the pre-soak tray one by one, then shuffle through the stack periodically (this isn't agitation, you just want the emulsion to soak up water evenly), they stay in the pre-soak tray a couple of minutes, then get transferred to the developer tray. Again a variation in approaches: some people transfer the sheets one by one, I just pick up the entire stack and move it over, and give it one quick shuffle before setting into the proper timing routine (see next paragraph).

However, Kevin's question seems more important: what do you mean by 5 minutes of agitation every 30 seconds? In shuffle processing, the agitation for each sheet is when you move that sheet from the bottom of the stack to the top. So with 4 sheets and desiring agitation each 30 seconds, you would move the bottom sheet to the top every 7 seconds. That means you would work your way through the 4 sheet stack once every 28 seconds, and each negative is being agitated once every 28 seconds (i.e. each sheet is getting agitation as close to every 30 seconds as the math allows, in reality it isn't that precise, but the idea is to get through the stack once in each 30 second period). With PMK, which suggests agitation at 15 second intervals, you would re-calculate, and to get through the stack each 15 seconds, you would move the bottom negative every 4 seconds (so 4 sheets, 16 second agitation, close enough).

Happily, once you get the hang of it, you don't need all these words...

Paul Hoyt
15-Feb-2013, 23:22
I split my developer into two trays. I shuffle from one tray to the other. I never try and develop more than 6 negative at a time. With 6 negatives I move one negative from the bottom of the first tray to the second tray every 5 seconds; with 3 negatives every 10 seconds. At 30 seconds I start over moving the bottom negative from tray 2 back to tray 1. I Dilute HC-110 1+63 [25ml + 1575ml] and make up 1600ml; 800 for each tray. I can't really comment on the developing time, I process TRI-X pan 320 at 68 degrees; normal development is 9 minutes.

Doremus Scudder
16-Feb-2013, 04:21
I'll chime in here as well.

My HC-110 times for Tri-X sheet film were based on a 1+63 dilution directly from stock. My "N" was 10'30". For Dil. B, exactly half that. That said, I haven't used this in a few years. You need to do tests to nail down your times, but a starting point is always a good thing.

As for procedure: I always pre-soak, mostly to keep the film from sticking together in the developer, which can be a pain when you are trying to keep a regular agitation sequence going... Immerse one sheet in the pre-soak and agitate it gently for 10 seconds or so before adding the next sheet. This is to keep the sheets from sticking to one another. If two sheets do stick together, don't panic, but gently work them apart. You've got lots of time (this is the pre-soak, after all). It can take a rather long time, but they will come apart. If you do get sticking sheets, increase the length of the interval between sheets (exact time depends on water quality).

After all the sheets are in, go through your agitation scheme for two minutes minimum (this gets you in practice for the developer stage too). The goal is to get the emulsion saturated. If you don't, you risk uneven development. Once you've committed to the pre-soak, you need to see it through. Don't skimp on time here.

At this stage, and before transferring the sheets to the developer, I make sure sheet number one is oriented differently from the rest of the sheets, with the code notches on the opposite end for easy ID. When agitating, it is reassuring to feel sheet one come up at the right time.

I have never used PhotoFlo as anything but the final rinse. I know of applications for PhotoFlo in the first bath of divided developers, but I have not seen recommendations from any manufacturer for using a wetting agent in the pre-soak or the developer. I would recommend against it, since it destroys the surface tension of the water, which is your friend when agitating.

I transfer the sheets from the pre-soak to the developer one-at-a-time. I feel this makes for more even development. Another possibility is to transfer the entire stack at one time, and quickly shuffle through it. Either are good practice; you choose what is best for you.

If your goal is once through the stack every 30 seconds, I would recommend the following when immersing the film in the developer:

If you choose method A, i.e., one-at-a-time immersion, then immerse each sheet separately in the same interval as your normal agitation (for four sheets, one sheet every 7.5 seconds). Start with sheet one. Agitate a bit between immersions. When all sheets are in, begin your shuffling; sheet one should hit the top of the stack on the 30-second mark and every 30 seconds thereafter. When time is up, gather up the stack and transfer the sheets to the stop one at a time in the exact same intervals and in the same order (i.e., start with sheet one, then two...). This ensures exactly the same time in the developer for all sheets. This is my preferred method.

When agitating, I shuffle along the short side of the film; especially in 5x7 trays, where you don't have really enough room to shuffle along the long side. I rotate the sheets 180 with each agitation. Some recommend 90, but I find this unwieldy in 5x7 trays. I have never had evenness problems with the 180 shuffle.

If you choose to immerse the entire stack, then get it in fast and shuffle through it quickly for the first 30 seconds of development, ending up with sheet one on top at the 30 second mark. Then begin normal once-through-the-stack shuffling, making sure sheet one is at the top at the 30-second marks. When developing time is up, make sure sheet one is on top, pick up and drain the entire stack and transfer it all at once to the stop and shuffle through it quickly. Again, this ensures that all sheets receive the same developing time.

If Jock Sturges can develop 16 sheets of 8x10 at a time, then he's a better man than I am. I like stacks of six; eight at the most. Once through the stack with 15 sheets would be a shuffle every 2 seconds... I don't think Jock manages that... maybe his "once-through-the-stack time" is longer?

Anyway, I hope this helps,

Oh yeah; Do practice with some scrap sheets with lights on and then off before trying real film. It'll save you time and headaches, believe me!

Best,

Doremus

ryanmills
16-Feb-2013, 11:48
@Doremus Thank you for your thoughts, did have one question on agitation. Are you simply pulling from the bottom and dropping it back in the developer? Your not shaking it or something else while in the developer are you?

Neal Chaves
16-Feb-2013, 15:47
I use diffusion enlargers and have used a great deal of Tri-X in the past. Now I use Ilford HP5+. I did extensive tests on both and found them essentially identical. Using HC110 B in tray development, I find a time of 5:00 at 68* produces a "normal" negative exposed for 100EI. A time of 7:30 will produce a normal negative with the film rated at 400EI. The negative from the 100 sceme will have slightly more shadow and highlight detail, seen only upon careful examination side by side of prints from both the 100EI and 400EI negatives. If I use a water presoak when processing a stack of sheets, I add an additonal thirty seconds.

Expansions and contractions are done as follows. I keep the time constant and vary the dilution.
N-1 3/4 oz. concentrate to 31 1/4 oz H20 EI is one half the N speed
N-2 1/2 oz. concentrate to 31 1/2 oz. H20 EI is one quarter of the N speed
N+1 1 1/2 oz. concentrate to 30 1/2 oz H20 EI is twice the N speed
N+2 2 oz concentrate to 30 oz H20 EI is four times the N speed

For several years when I first started developing this way with Tri-X, I used an N speed of 64 for 5:00 at 68* in HC110 B, but I later increased it to 100. If you look at Phil Davis' BTZS charts, you can pick off the Tri-X speed as EI 64 at 5:00 in HC110 B. Of course, your times and speeds may be quite different due to variables in shuuter, meters, water quality, etc.

Doremus Scudder
18-Feb-2013, 08:19
@Doremus Thank you for your thoughts, did have one question on agitation. Are you simply pulling from the bottom and dropping it back in the developer? Your not shaking it or something else while in the developer are you?

Well, in essence, yes. However, when I first immerse the film, I do lift and drop it and then jiggle it gently in the solution before adding the next sheet, then similarly, I lift and drop and jiggle the whole stack as it builds up. This is just for the initial immersion. After that, it's just pull a sheet from the bottom, turn it 180 and ever so gently place it flat on the surface of the developer and then submerge it ever so gently and slowly (fast will get you surge marks) with the balls of the fingers.

When I pull a sheet from the bottom, I usually lift the stack. This gives a bit of agitation to the top sheet. Pulling the bottom sheet and placing it on top agitate both the new sheet and the sheet just below it on the stack. I use PMK, which is fairly agitation-sensitive and have very even negatives this way. The trick is to submerge the shuffled sheet slowly to avoid surging at the edges; I kind of just let it drift down, guided by my fingers in the center. When tuning the negative, I try to get it perpendicular so that it drains a bit. Other than that, no special jiggling except for the initial immersion.

Best,

Doremus