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photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 17:34
This thread is for those of us who are stubborn enough to go against Jobo's warnings.

There doesn't seem to be a dedicated thread to this topic and information seems to be scattered everywhere, though there seems to be a good bit of interest in the subject. In this thread, post your experiences (success and failure) with developing film in the 2800 series print drums. It's my hope that we can learn from each others experiences and help others that are interested in using this mix.

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 17:38
8931289313

FP4 / D-76 1:1 20 degrees C / 500 ml chemistry in bottom half of Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on F setting / 5 min Pre-Wash, 11 min development
* I used photoshop to bring the levels over to show the inconsistency better.

(I've since read another thread that D-76 should be used 1:2 or 1:3 in these print drums)

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 17:39
8931489315

HP5+ / D-76 1:1 20 degrees C / 500 ml chemistry in bottom half of Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on F setting / 5 min Pre-Wash, 11 min development

* I used photoshop to bring the levels over to show the inconsistency better.

(I've since read another thread that D-76 should be used 1:2 or 1:3 in these print drums)

djhopscotch
12-Feb-2013, 18:08
Looking like you have flow lines in the sky, i had similar problems with the 2500 series with reels. I use a uni color non-reversing motor base. I started manually reversing the drum every 20s and it has seem to solve the flow line problems. Can you set the cpp-2 to either reverse direction more or change to a faster speed?

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 18:51
Looking like you have flow lines in the sky, i had similar problems with the 2500 series with reels. I use a uni color non-reversing motor base. I started manually reversing the drum every 20s and it has seem to solve the flow line problems. Can you set the cpp-2 to either reverse direction more or change to a faster speed?

I'm on the lowest setting, which is F for film. Yes, faster speeds are available, six total. 0 = off, F, then 3,4 next P for print, then 6, 7.

Sal Santamaura
12-Feb-2013, 20:09
...CPP-2 on F setting...


...CPP-2 on F setting...


I'm on the lowest setting, which is F for film...That doesn't reveal actual drum rpm unless you also factor in the processor's serial number and any upgrades that were incorporated into it:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86072-JOBO-CPA-2-and-Expert-Drum-3005&p=836600&viewfull=1#post836600

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 21:50
That doesn't reveal actual drum rpm unless you also factor in the processor's serial number and any upgrades that were incorporated into it:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?86072-JOBO-CPA-2-and-Expert-Drum-3005&p=836600&viewfull=1#post836600

Thanks for the information Sal! It must be 25 rpm. This is the older model without the upgrade.

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 21:58
Okay here's another test using Rodinal 1:50. Got some uneven development in the sky again.

8932489325

HP5+ / Rodinal 1:50 20 degrees C / 500 ml chemistry in bottom half of Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on 25 rpm / 5 min Pre-Wash, 11 min development

* I used photoshop to bring the levels over to show the inconsistency better.

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 22:09
This image was developed with the same image from above.

89326

HP5+ / Rodinal 1:50 20 degrees C / 500 ml chemistry in bottom half of Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on 25 rpm / 5 min Pre-Wash, 11 min development

Sal Santamaura
12-Feb-2013, 22:25
...It must be 25 rpm. This is the older model without the upgrade.Your next trial should use a speed setting of 3-1/2 to achieve around 45 rpm.


Okay here's another test using Rodinal 1:50. Got some uneven development in the sky again....25 rpm...Even at the correct speed, you'll probably still not achieve even results you're seeking. Expert drums were created for a reason. Note that the chambers in them aren't cylindrical. They're fat-waisted (reverse hourglass), made from sheet stock bent to the desired shape and glued together.

Sometimes it's best to stop being stubborn and heed the manufacturer's advice. :D

photoevangelist
12-Feb-2013, 23:19
Your next trial should use a speed setting of 3-1/2 to achieve around 45 rpm.

Even at the correct speed, you'll probably still not achieve even results you're seeking. Expert drums were created for a reason. Note that the chambers in them aren't cylindrical. They're fat-waisted (reverse hourglass), made from sheet stock bent to the desired shape and glued together.

Sometimes it's best to stop being stubborn and heed the manufacturer's advice. :D

Correct. I read of success stories with this combo and thought I'd save a buck by going this route. I may have to upgrade. Hoping to hear success stories and combos in this threat as I continue to search other threads.

Trying the 3.5 setting (@45 rpm) now.

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 01:09
Success!

89332

5x7 HP5+ / Rodinal 1:100 20 degrees C / 500 ml chemistry in bottom half of Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on ~45 rpm / 5 min Pre-Wash, 18 min development

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 02:05
89334

5x7 HP5+ / D-76 1:3 20 degrees C / 500 ml chemistry in bottom half of Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on ~45 rpm / 5 min Pre-Wash, 20 min development

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 03:21
What's the minimum amount of chemistry needed for the 2850 drum on negatives? I'm using 500ml for bottom half and 1000ml for the whole enchilada. I'm sure that's more than needed. I'm only doing half the capacity: 4 5x7s, rather than 8 on the whole drum. Only 2 5x7s in the bottom half.

Sal Santamaura
13-Feb-2013, 09:04
Success!...Congratulations. Not perfect (see the upper right corner), but a huge improvement.


...5x7 HP5+ / Rodinal 1:100...500 ml chemistry...


...5x7 HP5+ / D-76 1:3...500 ml chemistry...


What's the minimum amount of chemistry needed for the 2850 drum on negatives? I'm using 500ml for bottom half and 1000ml for the whole enchilada. I'm sure that's more than needed. I'm only doing half the capacity: 4 5x7s, rather than 8 on the whole drum. Only 2 5x7s in the bottom half.Minimum chemistry for coverage in a drum isn't the limiting factor. Developer capacity is. In both your examples, you're already using half the minimum amount of concentrate / stock solution specified. Rodinal requires 10 ml per 80 square inches of film; for D-76, the figure is 250 ml. Therefore, given your processor's 1 liter rotation limit (and the non-upgraded motor will suffer if asked to do that regularly), you shouldn't be processing more than two 5x7 sheets per run. Even with their high acquisition cost, Expert drums might be worthwhile because they enable even development despite shorter times using less dilute developers.

Note that others may post they use less concentrate / stock solution per film area than the manufacturers specify and "it works fine." Results when taking that approach depend on average scene density of developed images. Confidence or crap shoot. The choice is yours. :D

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 14:33
For ULF do you recommend the 3063 drum? I will be shooting 7x17, which is why I went for the 2850 drum. For 4x5, I use the 2500 series for rotary processing - is the expert series that much better than the 2500 series? Film costs are not cheap. Better to process them correctly. I was under the impression print drums were fine. Also without the upgraded model, I was under the impression that the expert series might not do well on it.

Sal Santamaura
13-Feb-2013, 15:08
For ULF do you recommend the 3063 drum? I will be shooting 7x17...The only film I process larger than 8x10 is an occasional single sheet of 11x14. For that I use a 2840 paper drum and live with the slightly less than perfectly even results. Note that I'm using XTOL, which seems to be less susceptible to flow marks than other developers, mostly pyro-based. I have no experience with 7x17; perhaps this thread will offer some useful insight:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?68386-Question-about-Jobo-3063


...For 4x5, I use the 2500 series for rotary processing - is the expert series that much better than the 2500 series?...I've processed 4x5 on 2509n reels in 2500-series tanks at several speeds, including the 75 rpm standard on CPE-2 Plus processors and slower rotation on a CPP-2. In all cases, I ended up with extra density near the reel edges, again, using non-pyro developers. That's how I came to standardize on Expert drums for 8x10 and smaller sheets.


...Also without the upgraded model, I was under the impression that the expert series might not do well on it.Expert drums are fine on older processors as long as one doesn't regularly load them with a full liter of chemistry.

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 15:35
The only film I process larger than 8x10 is an occasional single sheet of 11x14. For that I use a 2840 paper drum and live with the slightly less than perfectly even results. Note that I'm using XTOL, which seems to be less susceptible to flow marks than other developers, mostly pyro-based. I have no experience with 7x17; perhaps this thread will offer some useful insight:


http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?68386-Question-about-Jobo-3063

I've processed 4x5 on 2509n reels in 2500-series tanks at several speeds, including the 75 rpm standard on CPE-2 Plus processors and slower rotation on a CPP-2. In all cases, I ended up with extra density near the reel edges, again, using non-pyro developers. That's how I came to standardize on Expert drums for 8x10 and smaller sheets.

Expert drums are fine on older processors as long as one doesn't regularly load them with a full liter of chemistry.

Very helpful information, Sal! I've been wanting to try XTOL. This gives me a good excuse. I particularly like XTOL + Rodinal results.

By the way, where do you get the information about the developer capacities? Is it in the data sheets? It's good, helpful information, but I'd like to read the numbers for myself before making it gospel.

Again, I really appreciate all your attention and comments to this thread!

Lachlan 717
13-Feb-2013, 16:02
I use 28XX drums to develop 7x17". Never had a problem.

Also, don't confuse the 3063 with the 3005/3006/3010 drums. The 3063 doesn't have the tubes, thus it doesn't have the bulging design. (I also use a 3063 for 3 sheets of 7x17 at a time with no issue).

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 16:08
I use 28XX drums to develop 7x17". Never had a problem.

Also, don't confuse the 3063 with the 3005/3006/3010 drums. The 3063 doesn't have the tubes, thus it doesn't have the bulging design. (I also use a 3063 for 3 sheets of 7x17 at a time with no issue).

Lachlan, what film/developer combo are you using?

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 16:12
Congratulations. Not perfect (see the upper right corner), but a huge improvement.





Minimum chemistry for coverage in a drum isn't the limiting factor. Developer capacity is. In both your examples, you're already using half the minimum amount of concentrate / stock solution specified. Rodinal requires 10 ml per 80 square inches of film; for D-76, the figure is 250 ml. Therefore, given your processor's 1 liter rotation limit (and the non-upgraded motor will suffer if asked to do that regularly), you shouldn't be processing more than two 5x7 sheets per run. Even with their high acquisition cost, Expert drums might be worthwhile because they enable even development despite shorter times using less dilute developers.

Note that others may post they use less concentrate / stock solution per film area than the manufacturers specify and "it works fine." Results when taking that approach depend on average scene density of developed images. Confidence or crap shoot. The choice is yours. :D

I just read on Adox's website 5ml per 8x10 sheet minimum for Rodinal. I was using 5ml to 500 ml with half the drum for 2 sheets of 5x7.

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 16:18
I use 28XX drums to develop 7x17". Never had a problem.

Also, don't confuse the 3063 with the 3005/3006/3010 drums. The 3063 doesn't have the tubes, thus it doesn't have the bulging design. (I also use a 3063 for 3 sheets of 7x17 at a time with no issue).

I'm aware that I may need up to three expert tanks. I shoot 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 & 7x17 soon. Too bad there isn't an expert tank that does 4x5 - 8x10!

photoevangelist
13-Feb-2013, 17:11
893938939489395

Dobong Mountain, Seoul, South Korea
5x7 HP5+ / Rodinal 1:100 20 degrees C / 1000 ml chemistry in Jobo 2850 with CPP-2 on ~45 rpm / 5 min Pre-Wash, 18 min development

Sal Santamaura
13-Feb-2013, 18:05
...where do you get the information about the developer capacities? Is it in the data sheets? It's good, helpful information, but I'd like to read the numbers for myself before making it gospel...The minimum quantities I've quoted are for one-shot use, i.e. the inherent capacity of each developer without workarounds for exhaustion, e.g. time compensation. For D-76, see the "Useful Capacity" column in the table on page 7 here:


http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

For Rodinal, see "Yield" on page 6 here:


http://mauglee.kitox.com/files/agfa_bw_film_chemicals_en.pdf

For XTOL, see the middle of the fifth paragraph under "Using Dilute Developer" on page 3 here:


http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf


I just read on Adox's website 5ml per 8x10 sheet minimum for Rodinal. I was using 5ml to 500 ml with half the drum for 2 sheets of 5x7.I'll trust Agfa rather than Adox. :) Perhaps Mirko is a "crap shoot" kind of guy. He'd have to be, starting up a new film/paper manufacturing operation in this era. :D:D

Lachlan 717
13-Feb-2013, 21:42
Lachlan, what film/developer combo are you using?

Both Ilford HP5+ and Efke 100, both in Tetenal Ultrafin.

Lachlan 717
13-Feb-2013, 21:43
I'm aware that I may need up to three expert tanks. I shoot 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 & 7x17 soon. Too bad there isn't an expert tank that does 4x5 - 8x10!

You can do (at least) 5x7 in the 3063; up to about 9 sheets at a time (based on me being able to do 3 sheets of 7x17 per tank). No idea about the 4x5/8x10, though...