French madness - World's biggest (photographic) lens?

[Steven Tribe]

In his summary of minor French lens makers, Corrado D'Agostini talks in his enjoyable book about Benoist & Berthiot. He writes:

"At the Universal Expo in 1900, it introduced an Aplanatic lens with 1 meter diameter and a 2 meter focus, weighing 381 kilos and cut from a piece of glass weighing 530 kilos."

His source is a L'Industrie Francaise des Instruments de Precision report from 1901.

I wonder if it actually worked -an F2 aplanat?

[Leigh]

They designed it for a point-and-shoot, but the project never got off the ground.

- Leigh

[Vaughn]

The lens for this must have come close...

http://robroy.dyndns.info/lawrence/mammoth.html

[BarryS]

The lens for this must have come close...

http://robroy.dyndns.info/lawrence/mammoth.html

Something's always bothered me about that photo. The lens looks like it was added in a retouching job. Maybe the actual lens didn't look that impressive, or maybe it wasn't mounted when they took that photo.

[E. von Hoegh]

In his summary of minor French lens makers, Corrado D'Agostini talks in his enjoyable book about Benoist & Berthiot. He writes:

"At the Universal Expo in 1900, it introduced an Aplanatic lens with 1 meter diameter and a 2 meter focus, weighing 381 kilos and cut from a piece of glass weighing 530 kilos."

His source is a L'Industrie Francaise des Instruments de Precision report from 1901.

I wonder if it actually worked -an F2 aplanat?

An Aplanatic lens - http://www.optics-online.com/mnp.asp is not an Aplanat.

[Vaughn]

Something's always bothered me about that photo. The lens looks like it was added in a retouching job. Maybe the actual lens didn't look that impressive, or maybe it wasn't mounted when they took that photo.

That has always bothered me, too.

[Bob Salomon]

A few years ago, in the 90's, an Arab sheik had Hasselblad and Zeiss make a one of a kind lens for his nature work. That lens was hung over the Hasselblad booth at Photokina and it was longer then the showcase! And it fits a recent camera!

[C. D. Keth]

They designed it for a point-and-shoot, but the project never got off the ground.

- Leigh

That deserves one of these. (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

[Richard Wasserman]

I remember seeing photos of that—it was quite impressive to say the least. What was it, something like a 2500mm f/2?


A few years ago, in the 90's, an Arab sheik had Hasselblad and Zeiss make a one of a kind lens for his nature work. That lens was hung over the Hasselblad booth at Photokina and it was longer then the showcase! And it fits a recent camera!

[Jac@stafford.net]

A few years ago, in the 90's, an Arab sheik had Hasselblad and Zeiss make a one of a kind lens for his nature work. That lens was hung over the Hasselblad booth at Photokina and it was longer then the showcase! And it fits a recent camera!

Here it is: http://www.juliuselias.com/wp-content/uploads/Zeiss_1700_01.jpg

And about the mammoth camera - an unretouched version: http://www.pubsignshop.com/media/pdsp-tc2528-04.jpg

[Brian C. Miller]

Something's always bothered me about that photo. The lens looks like it was added in a retouching job. Maybe the actual lens didn't look that impressive, or maybe it wasn't mounted when they took that photo.

The lens was real, and so was the photograph it made, for a contact print. What you see in the photo is a problem with the early emulsions (and of digital today), is that of what happens with bright objects when the emulsion has a limited range. The lens was brightly polished brass, so in the photo it looks really weird. It's like when a current digital sensor gets that magenta shadow around bright chrome. The only thing they could have done would have been an early version of HDR: expose for the people, and then make another exposure for the lens, and then put the two together in the darkroom.

[Peter Gomena]

I've always wondered if any of the contact prints from this gigantic camera still exist. I kind of doubt they would have been shipped back from France, but surely the railroad company must have had an extra made for "home" use.

[Jac@stafford.net]

The lens was brightly polished brass,

I believe it was painted black.

[Steven Tribe]

I made a mistake in transcribing Corrado's book text.

It is indeed an aplanat - not an aplanatic.
So 4 pieces of 1 meter diameter glass - 8 glass surfaces to work and 2 balsam joins to make.

[E. von Hoegh]

I made a mistake in transcribing Corrado's book text.

It is indeed an aplanat - not an aplanatic.
So 4 pieces of 1 meter diameter glass - 8 glass surfaces to work and 2 balsam joins to make.

An Aplanat working at f2 sounds incredible, are there any illustrations?

[BarryS]

The first photograph is an obvious (and bad) retouching job. The second photograph might show the real lens or it might be another retouching job. I have plenty of experience with orthochromatic emulsions and from the earliest photographic processes, it's been possible to take photos of brass lenses in the sun.

[Steven Tribe]

No, Corrado was writing in a section with the alphabetic listing of minor French lens makers (he has a separate listing for Berthiot alone without the other partner).

He has a direct reference to the later listed numbered references (full academic style) which is the Industry report from just after the EXPO 1900.
Have searched a bit for it (photos etc) but only found who got gold and silver medals etc.

I'll drop him a line if anyone wants more information?

[E. von Hoegh]

I'm curious.

[Steven Tribe]

Email sent to Italy!

[Steven Tribe]

And a reply from Corrado, which includes the reference he gave.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

French madness? Here I am ;) Thanks, Steven, for the document.

If I read well, the text in French speaks about lentilles aplanétiques which means : single lens element, or cemented doublet, not a compound lens like the Carl Zeiss Monster ;)
What is unusual is the f/2 relative aperture of this single lens element (or doublet). I have no idea of its shape, so that is deserves the name 'aplanétique'.

Regarding big lenses, here is a wiki-list of biggest refracting telescopes still in operation, the champion is in Yerkes observatory in the US with a diameter of one meter = 40", although a bigger lesn of 1.25 meter = 50" in diameter was built in 1900 in France
http ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_optical_refracting_telescopes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_optical_refracting_telescopes)
The 1900 1.25 m telescope
http ://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Paris_Exhibition_Telescope_of_1900 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Paris_Exhibition_Telescope_of_1900)
But the f-number of those refective telescope lenses is around f/15, not f/2.
There is one refractrive telescope of diameter 80 cm, actually this is a twin-lens telescope (80 cm and 60 cm) in Meudon observatory near Paris, la grande lunette de Meudon, the Meudon 33-inch Great Refractor.
http://www.obspm.fr/histoire/meudon/meudon04.gif

This telescope was designed to make precise observations and photographs of planets. So the Meudon lens definitely deserves the name of photographic lens, although it is not a f/2.
This big telescope is currently under repair and as far as I've read, will be available for the public in the near future.
Hence optical technology of the 1900's was able to fabricate glass lenses of at least 40" in diameter, and the instrument still exists in Yerkes observatory; the record being 50" and well-documented although no longer existing.

[Steven Tribe]

I read through the text and was sure aplanétiques was the equilavent of aplanatic, rather than aplanat as translated by Corrado.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Yes, according to this French authoritative on-line dictionary, http ://atilf.atilf.fr (http://atilf.atilf.fr)
aplanétique is simply a French spelling for the original English word: aplanatic, and means: a lens corrected for spherical aberration.
Could be a cemented doublet like in refractive telescopes, but with a f/2 aperture!! I really have no idea for such a f/2 lens designed and fabricaded in 1900. 380 kg !!!
Could-it make sense that those crazy lenses were made as a technology demonstrator for the 1900 exhibition? Related to the crazy 50" refractive telescope?

[Steven Tribe]

Exactly, a National demonstration of technology and industrial know-how at the Paris EXPO of 1900!

[Michael Filler]

I would like to have seen the train. Anyone know of an image available online?

[hiend61]

A few years ago, in the 90's, an Arab sheik had Hasselblad and Zeiss make a one of a kind lens for his nature work. That lens was hung over the Hasselblad booth at Photokina and it was longer then the showcase! And it fits a recent camera!

The sheik is HM Hamad bin Khalifa al Thany, who is the present Qatar sovereign and an absolute photography entusiast and collector. He also ordered Leica to build an Apo telyt 1600/5,6 which he uses for nature photography.

[Andrew O'Neill]

BarryS and Vaughn, here is another image of that massive camera. The lens looks more realistic in this one.

[Jac@stafford.net]

The condenser lenses for my 8x10 Saltzman enlarger are something like 17 inches in diameter. It never occurred to me to see if they could be used as a lens.

[CCHarrison]

Ok, I'll play.... here's a shot of the Alton Camera with the text about the lens.

Dan



105514

[Dan Fromm]

Hard to know which Zeiss w/a lens was meant, but at one time they'd build 'em to order. See p. 60 for details. http://books.google.com/books?id=cnkWAAAAYAAJ&dq=zeiss+unar&source=gbs_navlinks_s

[CCHarrison]

ooops...forgot to add this reference:

"Two Zeiss patent lenses were especially made by the Bausch and Lomb Optical Company of Rochester, NY. One was a wide-angle lens of 5½ ft equivalent focus and the second one, which was used to make the train photograph, was a telescopic rectilinear lens of 10 ft equivalent focus." Times-Herald, 24 October 1900. URL: http://robroy.dyndns.info/lawrence/mammoth.html#fn12

Dan

[duff photographer]

I would like to have seen the train. Anyone know of an image available online?

Here's a link to the whole story published at the time in The Harmsworth Magazine with a photo. Scroll about halfway down.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/199777/2197909.aspx

[Emil Schildt]

Here's a link to the whole story published at the time in The Harmsworth Magazine with a photo. Scroll about halfway down.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/p/199777/2197909.aspx

this is very cool!

(where did the lenses go?)

[duff photographer]

this is very cool!

(where did the lenses go?)

Dunno :-(

I checked around a while ago but didn't find anything. Perhaps the camera and the lens went to the railroad company as I assume they paid for it all. Might be hidden in some back room of some dusty building, although I can't imagine that nowadays, or maybe it was destroyed as part of the deal. Pure conjecture on my part. ;-)

Further to the link I provided, these might also be of interest...

http://dig.lib.niu.edu/ISHS/ishs-2002summer/ishs-2002summer130.pdf
http://robroy.dyndns.info/lawrence/mammoth.html

...and is the only published material on the camera I know about (other than that already linked above), although there must be more.

DF

[Michael Clark]

That Lawrence fellow was really an inventive person. The shutter on the Kite cameras he used to photograph the San Francisco earth quick and fire is pretty interesting in having the gap between the two shutter curtains at different widths from top to bottom to compensate for exposure between the foreground light and sky light.Those camera's were huge. Nice link duff.

Mike

[Jim C.]

duff, very informative read thanks for finding those links.