historic photograph: real or fake?

[mrladewig]

In the 3 shots they are not in just the same order, they are in identical positions (i.e. head turns, etc) in exactly the same positions on the track. Like 3 simultaneous exposures, which I suppose is not out of the question.

Regarding the speed, I've ridden track bikes at the USOC track occasionally when I was racing in college. On a cement track, you do not need to ride very fast to stay up on the bank, even very high on the bank. When riding slow (and you can ride VERY slow), the bike will be very upright. It also appears that the crank arms are short to accomodate the angle (hitting a pedal on the bank is a good way to get some road rash).

If you've ever ridden a track bike, you'd also know that most of the riders will end up looking in the same direction on the turns at slow speed. They all look into to the turn. As it seems they're stunt riders, they all appear to be looking at the rider ahead or across from themselves to ensure pace. This is the expected position.

As for the spokes, if they're riding at just a couple miles per hour, I'm sure there is a shutter speed at which the spokes will not appear to move. After all, you've got to get into the 1/250 range to get good motion blur in race car wheels when panning, and they're going a whole lot faster than 1 or 2 miles per hour.

[Paul Kierstead]

In the event some of you have not actually viewed how strikingly close the photographs are:

http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010859.jpg
http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010860.jpg
http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010861.jpg

[Paul Kierstead]

Incidently, there are lots more which don't come up in the index so easily, for example

http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010866.jpg

These are varied.

[CarstenW]

In the event some of you have not actually viewed how strikingly close the photographs are:

http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010859.jpg
http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010860.jpg
http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010861.jpg

The first two could be two prints from the same negative. The third one (and the original one) all have exactly the same configuration of bikes on the track, and the guy standing, so I guess that settles that: it is posed, and they are not moving. It must be just promotional material.

[mrladewig]

In the event some of you have not actually viewed how strikingly close the photographs are:

http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010859.jpg
http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010860.jpg
http://museumofnyc.doetech.net/Voyag...8/Z0010861.jpg

I did not see the other photographs, so with that in mind, it does seem likely they are staged with bikes propped or something. I don't think that takes anything away from the image. Its a compelling image that implies motion, human form and inventiveness. I also believe the image could be composed and executed in motion with the equipment of the day, but there could be very valid reasons not to do so.

[Dan Fromm]

The bikes don't have to be propped. "Standing" isn't that difficult if the bike has a fixed hub, i.e., no freewheel. That's a track bike.

[Kirk Gittings]

The bikes don't have to be propped. "Standing" isn't that difficult if the bike has a fixed hub, i.e., no freewheel. That's a track bike.

But IME "standing" with the bike leaning is virtually impossible.

[rdenney]

But IME "standing" with the bike leaning is virtually impossible.

No, that's possible. What is not possible is doing it without the front wheel being turned. Doing a track stand for more than a couple of seconds with straight wheels is extremely difficult, even on smooth, flat pavement. A track stand on banking is actually easier, but the front wheel has to be turned into the banking. Then, rocking the pedals back and forth in small bits causes the gravity vector to pass back and forth over the contact patch, which is required to stay upright.

These guys have their wheels straight, and rocking the pedals would not have that required effect. And the openings in the surface would greatly complicate maintaining traction.

In one of the photos, the banking didn't look as steep as in the first photo. If it is 40 degrees or less, riding very slowly around the track might be possible.

Rick "who was never very good at track stands" Denney

[Mike Anderson]

But IME "standing" with the bike leaning is virtually impossible.

It could be done I think, standing and leaning, for an instant. The position would be the apex of a certain trajectory. Immediately after the decisive moment they would turn and roll down off the track.

My theory is that
1) they're moving very slowly or not moving
2) there's no hidden supports
3) it took much practice and experienced stunt riders to get the shot.
4) they wanted to get all 4 riders high on the track, but after many tries the best they could do was get 3 on the track.

Are the 3 guys on the track all looking at the guy not on the track?

My question is what was the point of this picture? Advertisement?

...Mike

[Kirk Gittings]

No, that's possible. What is not possible is doing it without the front wheel being turned. Doing a track stand for more than a couple of seconds with straight wheels is extremely difficult, even on smooth, flat pavement. A track stand on banking is actually easier, but the front wheel has to be turned into the banking. Then, rocking the pedals back and forth in small bits causes the gravity vector to pass back and forth over the contact patch, which is required to stay upright.

These guys have their wheels straight, and rocking the pedals would not have that required effect. And the openings in the surface would greatly complicate maintaining traction.

In one of the photos, the banking didn't look as steep as in the first photo. If it is 40 degrees or less, riding very slowly around the track might be possible.

Rick "who was never very good at track stands" Denney

I used to be pretty good with this on my road bike at stop lights. I should have added that you can't do it with the bike tilted AND with your body aligned with the tilt. You could tilt the bike if you then turned the wheel and moved your center of gravity back over past the top tube to compensate. But just turning the wheel with the bike tilted that much isn't going to solve the center of gravity problem. Regardless these guys are defying gravity if they are not moving.