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Thread: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

  1. #81

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Graves View Post
    I still have not heard one cogent expression of any harm that came from an unmoderated Lounge.
    Censorship is often more about intolerance for divergent ideas than intolerance for bad language.
    Last edited by Ron Marshall; 7-Nov-2008 at 08:37.

  2. #82

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_A View Post
    If my favorite driver went over to Toyota, I'd dump his ass with a quickness.
    Some of us get tired of pretending to always have the right politics. We would much prefer to be genuine - who we really are.

    I remember the fast trackers telling me how I should play golf so taht I could suck up to upper level mgmt. No thanks, they get enough of my time and personality.

    That does not mean being rude, or obnoxious, etc.

    But, when Ford fired me 2 years ago - I went and bought two Hondas!!

    F' em.

  3. #83

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Both sides have presented and defended their positions well, but for the greater good of the site I think restrictions on discussion are not a good thing. At times I was surprised to see what was being discussed in the Lounge, topics not really germane to the site but not unexpected when a large group gets together, sort of like brawls at the edge of a carnival crowd. If the participants enjoy it, and it doesn't wreck the main event, why not? And it provides some interesting diversion for the rest of us.

    What does worry me is how restrictions on political and religious discussion could affect artistic discussion on this site. As an example, Serrano's Piss Christ, sort of a photograph, generated massive public discussion of art vs. religion vs. politics. How could we discuss it here? There would be many shades of gray as to what would be appropriate and inappropriate discussion. I wouldn't want to be moderator in that case.

    We've already seen one of the deleterious effects of restricted discussion. Good people leave. I was very sorry to see Domenico Foschi go. I very much appreciated and admired his visual and verbal contributions to this site. Perhaps the Owner and Moderators could rethink and revisit this whole issue.
    Wayne Lambert
    Colorado Springs, Colorado
    www.waynelambert.net

  4. #84

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    It's a shame that we can't discuss the work of large format war photographer and journalist Simon Norfolk. Hell, Frederick Evans photos of cathedrals have to do with the spiritual and religious, I guess discussion of them, beyond the technical aspects of the images, should be banned as well.

    Ehh, I like Ralph and Kirk but once you taste the absolute power of the Gods, it is hard to relinquish your grasp.... I imagine that by having something to police it gives them a purpose and something fun to do.

    I can understand their shutting down the lounge to the jerks who pop up only to argue, but by stopping the political discussions altogether they really 'throw the baby out with the bathwater."

    I suspect it the forum will become less of a social ground and the future discussions will continue to be ever more gear- and newbie-related.

    Perhaps I should be looking for censorship classes at the Community College? It seems like it should be a skill in high demand given current events.

  5. #85

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    There have been many well thought out posts presenting excellent arguments in favor of returning to the old forum rules.

    Let's imagine for a moment that this support is having an impact on the moderators and they are beginning to come around but they need to be a little a little more comfortable that the Lounge will promote and not detract from the purpose of the forum.

    In order to make them more comfortable, are there any self imposed restrictions you would recommend?

    I ask because I certainly got spun up a couple of times and may have crossed a line. I don't really know if I did and would like to know. I remember a thread about terrorists that may be an example of a poster, me, of going too far. Did I contribute to having the rules changed? I apologize to all the members if I did.

    There was a poster who was so upset he said another poster should have his throat ripped out. Is that going too far? If so what limits, if any would we as a community apply?

    I personally started to get tired of the lounge because of the rudeness and lack of courtesy for each other and I know a number of members said they were never coming back to the lounge for that very reason. Is it inappropriate to ask members to be courteous to each other? Argue strenuously, with passion, but please show some modicum of civility. Is that too restrictive?

    There was a sense by a number of members that the lounge had become the hunting ground for a group of radicals that dominated the lounge and pounced on any unsuspecting member who wandered into the lounge. Can we as a community manage that scenario? Should we as a community manage that scenario or just let the lounge deteriorate into a single ideological forum for the right wing fanatics, or left wing fanatics, or just plain fanatics?

    I honestly don’t know the answers to these questions. I could argue “yes” or “no” to each question. I personally would like to see a certain level of respect applied to all members but struggle with the idea of “imposing” my standards on anyone else.

  6. #86

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sloane View Post
    There have been many well thought out posts presenting excellent arguments in favor of returning to the old forum rules.

    Let's imagine for a moment that this support is having an impact on the moderators and they are beginning to come around but they need to be a little a little more comfortable that the Lounge will promote and not detract from the purpose of the forum.

    In order to make them more comfortable, are there any self imposed restrictions you would recommend?

    I ask because I certainly got spun up a couple of times and may have crossed a line. I don't really know if I did and would like to know. I remember a thread about terrorists that may be an example of a poster, me, of going too far. Did I contribute to having the rules changed? I apologize to all the members if I did.

    There was a poster who was so upset he said another poster should have his throat ripped out. Is that going too far? If so what limits, if any would we as a community apply?

    I personally started to get tired of the lounge because of the rudeness and lack of courtesy for each other and I know a number of members said they were never coming back to the lounge for that very reason. Is it inappropriate to ask members to be courteous to each other? Argue strenuously, with passion, but please show some modicum of civility. Is that too restrictive?

    There was a sense by a number of members that the lounge had become the hunting ground for a group of radicals that dominated the lounge and pounced on any unsuspecting member who wandered into the lounge. Can we as a community manage that scenario? Should we as a community manage that scenario or just let the lounge deteriorate into a single ideological forum for the right wing fanatics, or left wing fanatics, or just plain fanatics?

    I honestly don’t know the answers to these questions. I could argue “yes” or “no” to each question. I personally would like to see a certain level of respect applied to all members but struggle with the idea of “imposing” my standards on anyone else.
    NOt to put words in the moderators mouth, but who would monitor all that? This is a private forum with moderators who do this in their spare time - without receiving any renumeration for it. As long as this is a free forum for all (except the one person who puts up all his money for this) I really don't see how you could police bad behaviour on an ongoing basis.
    Juergen

  7. #87
    Founder QT Luong's Avatar
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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Petronio View Post
    It's a shame that we can't discuss the work of large format war photographer and journalist Simon Norfolk. Hell, Frederick Evans photos of cathedrals have to do with the spiritual and religious, I guess discussion of them, beyond the technical aspects of the images, should be banned as well.
    No, all "rules" are subject to interpretation. If some political/religious topics are truly related to photography, and discussed as such in a civil way, I don't see that being a problem.

    On the other hand, it is certain we will not accept posts that are purely political and totally unrelated to photography. Examples of those are questions whether we should nuke country X or most of the comments on the 2008 US election that overwhelmed the Lounge before it was closed to such topics.

    Attempts to stir a political discussion under a thin disguise of a photographic topic may sound like a bit of harmless fun to you, but to others, they indicate an attempt to game the rule, and therefor a lack of respect for the forum and the work put on by the moderators. Such an attitude has contributed to the new rules being put in place.

    As for the new rules, like the Lounge itself, they are an experiment. If you look at the archives, you will see that there has been already a lot of discussions and disagrements on whether the Lounge should be killed or not. Absent actual data, not much can be decided conclusively. We will try to reassess after a while to see if we are better off or worse with the new rules. In the while, I'd say attempts to influence this by stirring up the pot are counter-productive.

  8. #88

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sloane View Post
    ...are there any self imposed restrictions you would recommend?...
    Yeah, kind of like that self-regulated freedom which worked so well in the financial markets.

  9. #89

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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    I think that it was wise to move the thread to the public forum.

  10. #90
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: An old tired Horse called the Lounge

    Quote Originally Posted by domenico Foschi View Post
    The real point is that my very core rejects vehemently the possibility that a person has invested himself of the power to delete my thoughts expressed in writing.

    It is about respect toward other people and respect toward an Universal ideal called Freedom. It is not that I want to talk about politic, it is that if you outline some limits on which my ideas can be expressed you are limiting my freedom.
    No, you are wrong about that. That's not at all what is happening.

    You have freedom of speech in your house. You also have the right to throw me out of your house if my speech offends you. Because it's your house and not the commons. If we meet in the commons and my speech offends you, you're just out of luck because neither of us has the right to control who is in the commons.

    This forum is owned and operated by QT. It's his house. He has every right to assign moderators and moderate the speech that's posted in his house. And he has every right to throw people out who don't abide by the rules he sets in his house.

    This is not an abridgment of your rights in any way. But you are right that this is about respect for other people's rights. He is not limiting your rights. He is exercising his. And you should respect his rights in his house.

    Bruce Watson

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