Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 71

Thread: Black and White Printing

  1. #31

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Posts
    2,094

    Re: Black and White Printing

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lockrey View Post
    I tend to agree.... why make a lot of work for yourself.
    I disagree with both you and Joanna.

    I went and looked at your site. It wouldn't matter whether the b&w photos there were printed with b&w inks or not. I am NOT saying you are a bad printer - I assume that you may have tons of experience and the prints are exactly what you intended. That kind of print is not difficult for a color inkset to make, that's all.

    There is an issue of printing style and what someone is after here. If you are a fairly contrasty printer, want to make prints like Greg here, or you have a fairly commercial look, I say make life easy and go with ABW. I sincerely mean no disrespect - it takes all kinds.

    If, on the other hand, one's sights are set to a different tune, say to reproduce the range of a George Tice print, a Frederick Evans print, a Weston, a Caponigro, Sutcliffe, etc., I submit that color ink won't do it justice, nor will two to three black ink carts. The b&w inks are still here, after a number of years, and people put so much effort into it because they are getting a return... Cone's inks are really something, QTR and StudioPrint are pretty terrific. It can be difficult to get everything balanced but once you do it works for a good long while... and you can forget the tech and get back to work knowing you have the tools to do it well.

    Just my 2cents

    Lenny
    EigerStudios
    Museum Quality Drum Scanning and Printing

  2. #32
    Michael E. Gordon
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    486

    Re: Black and White Printing

    I agree entirely with what Lenny says.

    I spent some serious time trying to overcome the challenges of printing both monochrome and color using a single Epson 7600, a RIP, and my own custom curves. I learned a lot about profiling and software, but lost a lot of time as well. And then the Cone K7 inksets came along, making extraordinary Piezography prints a piece of cake even to the ordinary user. I bought an Epson 7880 for the K3 color inks, and converted my 7600 to K7 Piezography. The K7 inkset and QTR are practically plug and play, and the prints simply blow out of the water any prints made using ABW or any other combination of colored inks. Even with my old 7600, clogging with Piezography is a non-issue (less troublesome than the original Ultrachrome inks).

    Discerning black and white print makers choose Piezography

  3. #33
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Temperance, MI
    Posts
    1,980

    Re: Black and White Printing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny Eiger View Post
    I disagree with both you and Joanna.

    I went and looked at your site. It wouldn't matter whether the b&w photos there were printed with b&w inks or not. I am NOT saying you are a bad printer - I assume that you may have tons of experience and the prints are exactly what you intended. That kind of print is not difficult for a color inkset to make, that's all.

    There is an issue of printing style and what someone is after here. If you are a fairly contrasty printer, want to make prints like Greg here, or you have a fairly commercial look, I say make life easy and go with ABW. I sincerely mean no disrespect - it takes all kinds.

    If, on the other hand, one's sights are set to a different tune, say to reproduce the range of a George Tice print, a Frederick Evans print, a Weston, a Caponigro, Sutcliffe, etc., I submit that color ink won't do it justice, nor will two to three black ink carts. The b&w inks are still here, after a number of years, and people put so much effort into it because they are getting a return... Cone's inks are really something, QTR and StudioPrint are pretty terrific. It can be difficult to get everything balanced but once you do it works for a good long while... and you can forget the tech and get back to work knowing you have the tools to do it well.

    Just my 2cents

    Lenny


    FWIW at my website all the B&W's are fiberbase silver or toned prints posted about 15 years go using an inexpensive HP scanner. The only thing digital about them is the scan. You really can't appreciate the quality of the photos on a web page due to size restrictions of the site. I haven't made a nickel from the web and refuse to put any effort into it. More importantly, I don't need to. So please don't judge anything you see there. I don't doubt that Cone inks and Image Print are great tools, but like you said it all depends on your needs. You can count on one hand the number of B&W's that go through my printer in a month. This ain't LA here, just Toledo.
    Greg Lockrey

    Wealth is a state of mind.
    Money is just a tool.
    Happiness is pedaling +25mph on a smooth road.



  4. #34

    Join Date
    Dec 1997
    Location
    Baraboo, Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,697

    Re: Black and White Printing

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Gordon View Post
    I agree entirely with what Lenny says.

    I spent some serious time trying to overcome the challenges of printing both monochrome and color using a single Epson 7600, a RIP, and my own custom curves. I learned a lot about profiling and software, but lost a lot of time as well. And then the Cone K7 inksets came along, making extraordinary Piezography prints a piece of cake even to the ordinary user. I bought an Epson 7880 for the K3 color inks, and converted my 7600 to K7 Piezography. The K7 inkset and QTR are practically plug and play, and the prints simply blow out of the water any prints made using ABW or any other combination of colored inks. Even with my old 7600, clogging with Piezography is a non-issue (less troublesome than the original Ultrachrome inks).

    Discerning black and white print makers choose Piezography
    Just curious - in what way does the K7 ink set "simply blow out of the water any prints made using ABW or any other combination of colored inks?"

    I used MIS inks for about three years, Epson color inks in an Epson 2200 printer with QTR for about two years, Advanced B&W only a few times, and Epson K3 inks in a 3800 printer with QTR for about two years. I have a good friend who used to use Piezography inks in a CF system with an Epson 2400 printer (until he tried K3 inks in a with QTR and abandoned the Piezography system). So while I haven't used Piezography inks myself, I've seen a lot of prints made with some version of those inks.

    If I were ranking the systems, I'd put the Epson 2200 at the bottom even with QTR, followed by Advanced B&W, and with Epson K3 inks and QTR along with Piezography inks in a tie though I'd choose K3 inks and QTR just because it doesn't require that I abandon color printing with my 3800.

    I can understand someone having a different ranking and thinking Piezography inks or some other system are the best. But claiming the Piezography inks "simply blow out of the water any prints made using ABW or any other combination of colored inks?" Certainly not from what I've seen. But maybe I don't know what to look for or in some other way have missed this huge difference that Piezography has over anything else so I'm open to learning from you.

    Discerning black and white print makers don't dump on the systems used by other discerning printers or make outrageous claims without explaining the basis for the claims. : - )
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  5. #35
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Temperance, MI
    Posts
    1,980

    Re: Black and White Printing

    A while back I purchased a few prints from that I would say is among the most "discernable B&W photographer/printers" here on this forum thinking I was finally going to get the chance to see a print made with the heralded Cone inkset. We don't get to see what you guys in the big cities see in the "Tundra" that often. He was however quick to tell me that they weren't made with the Cone inks after all and that he would be glad to refund my money if I thought that they were. He went on to explain that he had to take back several prints due to fading issues. Apparently Cone has since improved his formula and my "discernable" photographer friend is going to try them again. If this is the formula that you all have been using for "years", I'd be wondering.
    Greg Lockrey

    Wealth is a state of mind.
    Money is just a tool.
    Happiness is pedaling +25mph on a smooth road.



  6. #36

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Santa Cruz, CA
    Posts
    2,094

    Re: Black and White Printing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ellis View Post
    I can understand someone having a different ranking and thinking Piezography inks or some other system are the best. But claiming the Piezography inks "simply blow out of the water any prints made using ABW or any other combination of colored inks?" Certainly not from what I've seen. But maybe I don't know what to look for or in some other way have missed this huge difference that Piezography has over anything else so I'm open to learning from you.

    Discerning black and white print makers don't dump on the systems used by other discerning printers or make outrageous claims without explaining the basis for the claims. : - )
    It certainly does depend what one is looking for, doesn't it. That said, there is an issue with smoothness throughout the entire tonal range. For folks that print contrasty, this is often not what they are looking for. They are looking for the impact of the image. Some folks even shoot with infrared! It's not my interest, but they love it. OTOH, if you want a look that rivals a platinum print, which extends each tone, with smooth transition to smooth transition all the way from top to bottom - then the only way you can accomplish it is with a black and white inkset with sufficient number of channels (oh yeah, and superb negs, great scans, lots of knowledge and some experience). That's a matter of physics, and not opinion.

    Its the criteria of a "great print" that is the assumption, not the technology. Most historical reference to great prints, with some exceptions, refer to the long tonal range prints vs the short...

    Lenny
    EigerStudios
    Museum Quality Drum Scanning and Printing

  7. #37
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    USA, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,362

    Re: Black and White Printing

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ellis View Post
    Just curious - in what way does the K7 ink set "simply blow out of the water any prints made using ABW or any other combination of colored inks?
    For me it's in the areas of color stability, tonal transitions, and overall smoothness.

    By color stability I mean constancy of shade from black to white. I've seen a number of B&W prints made with color inks that "drift" back and forth in color cast as the print goes up the scale from black to white, often being a bit magenta in some tones and a bit green in others. It makes the print "shimmer" for me and it's an ugly effect. With the advent of separate gray inks in the color inksets color stability in B&W prints has improved but I still see it now and then. Less so with ABW. Less still with QTR. But it's not gone.

    Tonal transitions can vary with the color inksets depending on where the tone is on the scale. If the tone hits a point where the inkset has to leave a fair amount of paper white showing to make the tone, it can look sort of ragged or rough. This is particularly true of highlights where the lightest inks in the inkset are used, but are still very dark compared to the tone that is being printed, thus requiring lots of paper white to show through to lighten the tone.

    Overall smoothness for me is important. I don't really know why, just seems to be the way I see. What I'm talking about is an upshoot of the tonal transitions I discussed above. But these occur at all the crossover points in the inkset. I can get by with a quad-tone set, but I can certainly see the improvements from a hex-tone or sep-tone set. I think it has to do with better coverage -- the inks cover more of the paper so there's less paper white involved in making tones. This makes it more of a continuous tone process.

    I'm not doing a great job explaining this. Words were never my strong point. But perhaps you get at least a hint of my meaning.

    All that said, this is clearly about the curve of diminishing returns. What you get with the current color inksets with their multiple gray inks is really pretty good. When you control it with ABW or QTR it's even better. When you use a grayscale quad-tone inkset it's even better. But when you use a hex-tone or sep-tone inkset it reaches a level where I can cease seeing the print and see the image.

    And I think it's reaching this level, where the tech. used to make the print gets out of my way so I no longer see the flaws and the image can "communicate with me" as it were, is what the K7 partisans are talking about.

    Clearly, not everyone sees the same way, or sees the same things. Else we wouldn't have the vast variety of photography we have today. Just because it works for one person doesn't mean it will for anyone else. But it works for some of us and I'm very glad this tool is available for those that want it.

    Bruce Watson

  8. #38
    bob carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario,
    Posts
    4,940

    Re: Black and White Printing

    This thread reminds me about the Fred Picker demo prints that I bought before the internet was available to me. I bought into the notes and waited patiently for each issue. At the time I thought I was a pretty good printer and I was being told that if I bought these wonderful prints and put them in my darkroom , the beauty of them would inspire me to become a better printer overnight.
    So I bought them, waited with great enjoyment in knowing I was going to see the best prints in the world.
    Well they arrived, I took one look at the chalky whites and dead blacks and with a lesson learned threw them into bin 9 where they belonged.
    I have had the luck to be able to see most processes including piezo , digital fibre, cannon black whites, enlarger black whites, platinum, azo, gum,carbon, tricolourcarbon,................
    which one is better, depends on the viewer and their tastes.

  9. #39
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    USA, North Carolina
    Posts
    3,362

    Re: Black and White Printing

    I like to think that in the end what makes a successful print isn't the tools used to make it, but the vision used to shape it. That said, people should use the tools with which they are most comfortable, so they can put a minimum of effort into using the tools and maximize the effort used to express their vision.

    Bruce Watson

  10. #40
    bob carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario,
    Posts
    4,940

    Re: Black and White Printing

    A very savvy lab owner I worked for late 70's had 15 mural rooms all with magnetic walls, 8x10 horizontal enlargers with Apo lenses in every room including econorolls, each room was identical and well thought out all leading to a darkhall and processor.
    I asked him why he went to all the expense to give each technician the best/equal gear.
    His response was that it took away all the excuses and the best printers would be obvious.
    This lab was extremely successful and he retired a multi- millionare and his reasoning made a lot of sense to me then and now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
    I like to think that in the end what makes a successful print isn't the tools used to make it, but the vision used to shape it. That said, people should use the tools with which they are most comfortable, so they can put a minimum of effort into using the tools and maximize the effort used to express their vision.

Similar Threads

  1. Question On Printing Black And White Using Epson
    By mo in forum Digital Processing
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 25-Nov-2008, 09:28
  2. "Master Black & White Printing Class." With John Wimberley.
    By Robert Brummitt in forum Announcements
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 2-Apr-2008, 22:54
  3. Tips on printing black and white with Imageprint?
    By Ed Richards in forum Digital Processing
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 28-Oct-2006, 10:33
  4. Going digital!
    By paul owen in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-Sep-2004, 04:48
  5. Digital Black and White Printing Options
    By David Karp in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 11-Aug-2004, 21:12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •