Why Moonrise over Hernandez?

[sun of sand]

I wanted to respond but it'll have to wait
WE GOT SNOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

lucky me my body is killing me and we already had like 2 feet out here to trudge through so I'm gonna most likely be dead before I CAN post
gotta take advantage of it, though

[sun of sand]

[QUOTE=rdenney;545694]I keep hearing this, but I think it's overstated. The vast majority of women likely to be in the market for art don't fear physical abuse from their men, and in terms of psychological abuse, they are, by my observation of those in our circle, like to give better than they get.

From THEIR men seems to be an important distinction
The man that you've so carefully selected for being one of the better/safest men out there?
Of course not

Still doesn't mean they arent buying artwork because of the roles they've been essentially forced into

But I think it's true that most women are moved by the idea of romance to a greater extent than most men.
I don't think so. I think that's yet again just gender roles.

To some, romance may equal safety, I suppose.
When I dream of romance I hardly ever think of a picnic within a battle zone
SAFE is what is natural. Safety is integral to romance
No time for kissing when dodging bullets or falling rock I always say



That's why I don't think Moonrise is an example of this effect. I look at that image, and I don't get any sense of romance at all. It's still a grand landscape with dramatic lighting and timing, almost forbiddingly so. ("Haunting" is a good word and consistent with my description.)

See I think you do see romance in it
Only the gender role youve been forced into won't completely allow you to "see" romance for what it is ..or let you say the word romance openly

a love affair=grand landscape
are you saying grande simply/merely as in BIG/vast? I kinda doubt it. Lots of things fit with the words big and great but I doubt you'd be spellbound by them all

fascination or enthusiasm for something

spirit or feeling of adventure, excitement, the potential for heroic achievement, and the exotic





I can't think of a single one of Adams's images that convey romance to me, and that's one reason I like them.

I don't buy this either, sorry
lol

"I can't think of a single one that conveys romance and that's why I like them"

COME ON!
haha
I'm a boy I don't like girls! I'm a MAN ..I don't have feeeeeeelings!
this is EXACTLY what you're saying there

corporate feminists are just as romantic as the housewife mother
Burly men love just as much as the metrosexual

If there is any "distinction" its the role they've taken on
The frigid corporate bitc has just taken on that persona because they fight another fight

Romance/love for/of things is natural




"noting many female artists who are ruthless unromantic

This is proof perhaps that the womans coalition fighting against violence towards women has worked
It has worked so well that NOW some of the stronger women feel free to put down the silly makeup and frillies and fragile personas -the feminists- and command not just equal respect as their girly counterparts but MORE
TRUE EQUALITY!
Not "equality" so long as I do this and that and the other
equality whether I follow the gender role or not

[rdenney]

I think that's yet again just gender roles.

To all you folks who eschew gender roles, maybe the important thing to recognize is that many folks, of both sexes, believe them to be relevant and true. And you may be surprised to discover that many actually prefer those roles to the alternatives. Perhaps the market comprises people who are comfortable in those roles, and if so, discussing the market is a matter of discussing what it is rather than what some would like it to be.

All models are false, but some are useful. A generalization is just a model, subject to the flaws that all models exhibit relative to reality. That does not mean they are not useful.

Whether we should tailor our work, to put it charitably, or sell out as some would have it, to the realities of the market is a separate decision.

The original question (after explanation by the OP) was whether a photo like Moonrise was more popular than other Adams photos because it appealed more to women, who are over-represented in the OP's clientele. And if so, what did that recommend to those who actually need the income from selling photos?

I know many people. Dozens--even hundreds. I know very few women who have been the victims of rape and very few men who would force themselves on a women, even back when the definition of rape was a bit different than it is today. I know very few women who live in perpetual fear of being attacked by men, and most women I know use the public trails around here (though cautiously in some places--but then I'm cautious, too) or who are unwilling to go to their car in the parking lot. In fact, I know none who are known to have been victims or perpetrators of rape, but I have to assume that maybe a few have been. Is there a demographic character to rape victims? I think there very likely is. Is that demographic large enough to overwhelm the sample of people I know sufficiently to bring the overall statistic to 1 in 4? That seems truly unlikely. Also, I think it's entirely reasonable that the demographics most associated with rape are less associated with art-buying.

The notion that we cannot discuss what differences there are without having to apologize for why it might be the case, or that we can't generalize without having to disclaim all the possible exceptions, can really hamper straightforward discussion, it seems to me.

Rick "not a fan of perpetual victimhood" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

This thread has drifted so far off base that I think the only way anyone is going to
settle these arguments is to exhume the bodies in the Hernandez cemetery and see
what risks killed them off.

[Greg Blank]

Maybe he proudly told the story of his picture taking prowess at many gallery openings and people in the sheep like way that they tend to be, sucked it up and felt compelled to buy the whole thing so to speak. Maybe they were just to timid to buy the good stuff "other less Anselish or less Ansel endorsed stuff" and felt safe buying what they percieved Adams "liked".

It would be a story I would tell if it was mine. Having a story helps !

I think I would have liked knowing E Weston and Ansel and would have enjoyed talking with them both. Maybe at the same time....never the less P Strand is my Hero Like his luminous platinum work

There’s also AA’s thrilling story about taking “Moonrise” (he couldn't find his meter; see The Negative, Chapter 6), and I’m curious if that may have added to its “sales appeal” – did a promotional effort ever make use of this story?

Or maybe this is a case where sales are, simply, due to a magnificent photo w/ broad appeal.

That is, it may have “sold itself.”

[Drew Wiley]

Back to the image itself. I think it encapsulates some of the mystique of the American West in the golden age of the motorist. Here drives someone around a
corner, and suddenly they encounter an icon of rural SW Americana in fairly-tale light (at least, that is the way the picture has been printed). Plus you have the
story to go with it, which was a sudden encounter with fleeting magic. And now
it is gone - the light and the simple innocency of the town - and we're left with a
relict memory of something we wish we had seen. It's not simply nostalgia, but the
symbol of an ideal, just like AA's majestic scenes of Yosemite Valley which so
precisely eliminate all the splattered ice-cream cones on the roads, the mangey
coyotes digging through garbage cans, and all the summer campers choking on
each other's hotdog toasting campfire smoke. Instead, he gives you an ideal, the
Yosemite Valley the whole natural park concept tries to evoke. I don't know how
many lonely ethnically-rich little spots like this still exist in New Mexico, probably
a number of them - but I'm certainly glad this one was recorded for posterity!

[JR Steel]

This is an interesting thread. I have only seen the later version of the print in person. My personal response related to the fragility of my insignificant existence in the universal scheme of things. I think the power of "Moonrise" is the ability to evoke a response, maybe not Adams response, but yet an emotional movement in most people.

[sun of sand]

[QUOTE=rdenney;546934]many folks, of both sexes, believe them to be relevant and true. And you may be surprised to discover that many actually prefer those roles to the alternatives.

Leno made a joke/referenced I don't remember exactly tonight about how when people risk penalty for complaining
they usually won't
they'll just accept it as the consequence is seen as worse than what they had

Most people probably believe bicycle helmets are a very very very good thing, too
They don't take into consideration that many accidents capable of causing severe head trauma will do so whether you're dome is encased in 2inches of foam or not
the accidents people truly worry over are the ones where the helmet has "little" benefit
It may literally save your life one day but the chances of it doing so are are about the same chances I'd give you of ...choking on applesauce
The cases where it saves you from 10 stiches are great and all but perhaps you'd be better off -learning how to actually ride a bike so you don't need to spend $30 ..for one example of things you can do

People believe in god
because there is an alternative they're scared of even more than the "believing" in whatever that has to be believed in


If people in general have created the roles we have it makes sense people in general will like those roles they've created
If man makes woman _____ whenever man says so
Man will like role of woman
Woman will accept role cause man says if woman doesn't woman get head clubbed
I dunno lol

We'd have to honestly study the "alternatives" we've created that enforce the desired behavior


Perhaps the market comprises people who are comfortable in those roles, and if so, discussing the market is a matter of discussing what it is rather than what some would like it to be.

Sure ..if you're a short sighted easy road quitter. ha
If you're discussing the market I don't see how you can close the discussion to discussion of what makes the market the market
If people know markets change -that a market IS a fluctuating thing just as it IS whatever it seems to be at that moment for whatever reasons
How can one tell what it exactly IS at the time they're discussing it ..that it hasn't already changed in some significant way that wont be appreciated for years

I see the door as wide open to possibilities
Others may want it shut

This thread veered into tailoring of ones work
Which is fine if you're saying perhaps ansel tailored his work
If the tailoring of work isn't prohibited within the thread I don't think you can deny my right to question and meader through tailoring itself
in order to tailor you have to have an audience and if markets change unknowingly and sometimes meaningfully maybe the most important thing to know when considering tailoring your work is not which market is seemingly buying NOW but why "markets" buy the way they do in the first place

if there are reasons why people buy -why they LIKE- maybe the reasons are all interconnected and if figured out to any small degree would mean your could tailor your work not to just one market but them all ..all in the same work


A generalization is just a model, subject to the flaws that all models exhibit relative to reality. That does not mean they are not useful

if something so certainly flawed is not only not a waste of space but could be seen as useful than my own wo/anderings on the certainly flawed subject cant be labeled as junk or off topic


Whether we should tailor our work, to put it charitably, or sell out as some would have it, to the realities of the market is a separate decision.

true
but just because everyone can have an opinion doesn't mean others cant have opinions on theirs



I know many people. Dozens--even hundreds. I know very few women who have been the victims of rape and very few men who would force themselves on a women, even back when the definition of rape was a bit different than it is today. I know very few women who live in perpetual fear of being attacked by men, and most women I know use the public trails around here (though cautiously in some places--but then I'm cautious, too) or who are unwilling to go to their car in the parking lot. In fact, I know none who are known to have been victims or perpetrators of rape, but I have to assume that maybe a few have been. Is there a demographic character to rape victims? I think there very likely is. Is that demographic large enough to overwhelm the sample of people I know sufficiently to bring the overall statistic to 1 in 4? That seems truly unlikely. Also, I think it's entirely reasonable that the demographics most associated with rape are less associated with art-buying.

The notion that we cannot discuss what differences there are without having to apologize for why it might be the case, or that we can't generalize without having to disclaim all the possible exceptions, can really hamper straightforward discussion, it seems to me.


But how important is the fact "1/4 of woman are.." or "Most rapists are" or the tip "walk with your keys prepared for use as a weapon" in a straightforward discussion on rape?
facts are not important at all
UNLESS
you use them trying to treat rape
The straightforward discussion on rape wouldnt be on its facts and figures
How many, who and where occured is not important
it would be on why IS rape ..an understanding of why the crime of rape exists
Whats more important-not quite right wording perhaps..
that your wife got raped or that someone is raping?

If Im reading this correectly it seems youre saying the police/military/courts/law are the straightforward entities in the discussion on rape while the crisis counselors and workers within/victims even/professors/advocates etc are pie in the sky daydreamers

What is a "straightforward discussion"


Is there a rape demographic? I think there very likely is.

Is the occurance/frequency within that demographic overwhelming enough to bring the overall statistic to 1 in 4? That seems truly unlikely.


I agree that rape is pretty equal opportunity but perhaps a major/dominant exists
I can't just end there, though

i cant get around straightforward


Is the war on terror/congressional meetings on the decision for declaration of war on terror a straightforward discussion on terrorism?
Is trying to understand the reasons for a terrorist wanting to blow himself up killling hundreds of others in the process a straightforward discussion?
It seems not with the expansive war
but that is what people wanted to do to try and end it
Now that it isnt clearly working to defeat terror nobody wants it
What is left? A straightforward discussion on why the straightforward act of war didn't work as well as planned ..not why it didn't work as much as why it didn't work as planned

Since most people BELIEVE the war hasn't worked
you'd think people would be doing something else

I don't even see ribbons on cars anymore

[Robert Hughes]

That's a veritable blizzard of words. Could you distill that down to a paragraph for us mere mortals?

[D. Bryant]

[QUOTE=sun of sand;547915]

I don't even see ribbons on cars anymore

I think it's time for a moderator to move this one to the Lounge.

Don Bryant