Page 7 of 10 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 100

Thread: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

  1. #61

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    5,505

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Dear Mr. J. Jeffrey Bragg,

    There were quite a number of people who tried to provide a professional answer to the OPs original question. Perhaps some of use were just idiots and when he said that he wanted to make high quality prints from 4X5 negatives we just did not understand what he meant.

    Frankly, I suspect there is a very large market for a scanner that can serve all formats, with *real* resolution of 6000 spi or more, and Dmax of 4.7 or more. A price around $500 or so new would also be very nice. Good luck in your search.


    Sandy King

  2. #62

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    53

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Jeffrey,

    Don't sweat it too much. Yea this thread was long and there was a lot of debating but that's fun and educational at the same time. In the end, we (hopefully) agreed to disagree but that's okay too. I'm sure Sandy and Don and Brian are great guys and I certainly don't think less of them for having opinions and standards that are different than mine. As they say "it's all good".

    Ultimately, in the end, it's still up to each individual to decide for themselves. You can read all the reviews you want (trust me, I did it too) but you'll eventually just have to make a choice and go for it. Nobody can tell you which scanner is best for you since it's way too subjective. Obviously from reading this thread and other reviews, you'll have noticed that I'm happy with my Epson, so are some reviewers but others like Brian, Don and Sandy are not. We can't tell you what you'll like.

    Honestly, at the price of the Epson, I was willing to take the gamble and I was pleasantly surprised. I figured for $480, if I didn't like it I could sell it or keep it for other uses. Actually it makes great contact sheets and scans old family prints, negs and slides with ease. Many of those don't need much in the way of resolution but they sure need ICE. The included Epson software is pretty good but there's also Vuescan (which has single-pass multisampling) and Silverfast which is very good too.

    I think if you're willing to put forth the time and effort to learn how to get the best results and have modest print requirements from 4x5, you'll do okay. Anyway, if you're interested in reading a little more about the Epsons and how to get better results, let me know and I'll include a few links.

  3. #63

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Rossburn, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    69

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Guys, just "Jeffrey" will do fine; I only put my full name in my sig because I'm one of those who insist on using my usual web-handle. (I do that in memory of a beloved dog who tasked me with my life's work back in 1969.) "Ditko-of-Seppala" is how I'm known all over the WWW, and also here; thus to avoid the 'stigma' of anonymity I put my full name in my sig line.

    I don't think anyone on this thread is an idiot. That's one reason why it seemed so very unsatisfactory. When someone who voluntarily labels himself a newbie asks a technical question, I think it is incumbent upon those who respond to attempt to provide an answer at the required level, or else clearly to explain why that is not possible. Print quality is an issue of long-standing debate in our craft. Ansel Adams and others provided outstanding examples, demonstrations of what PQ means, that stand beyond others to this day. But many have never seen an AA print first-hand, and of course normal dot-screened book images, or small web images, completely fail to convey the reality.

    One would have thought that after the pioneering work of Adams & White in systematising things via the Zone System, that in the intervening years between their day and ours some kind of clear standards would have been evolved. Instead, we still wrangle like the blind men feeling about on the elephant, arguing over the parts and perhaps missing out on the whole. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be agreement to the point that standard images are referenced for purposes of comparison. MTF is the closest they've come to pinpointing optical quality; well, we had MTF back in the 1960s, what have we done since then? It isn't any more comprehensible or satisfactory now than it was then. Test charts at least make resolution VISIBLE in a way that MTF graphs fail to do. But neither says anything about print quality.

    I just wish that when we start talking about SCANNERS, which are totally unloveable, characterless optical/mechanical/electronic devices for analog-to-digital transfer of an image, we could short-circuit the argy-bargy with clear, measurable standards of image-fidelity parameters. Y'unnerstan wha'ahm sayin'?

  4. #64

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Rossburn, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    69

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy King
    Frankly, I suspect there is a very large market for a scanner that can serve all formats, with *real* resolution of 6000 spi or more, and Dmax of 4.7 or more. A price around $500 or so new would also be very nice. Good luck in your search.
    Sandy, it is precisely because there is no such animal, nor even anything particularly close, that objective standards of image fidelity would be so nice, so that one machine might be systematically compared with others and the prospective purchaser could go for the machine within his price bracket that provided the best compromise, highlighting the parameters of image-transfer and operation that matter most to him as an individual. Wading through reams of comparative scans of different images only gives a person brain-fag after a certain point.

  5. #65

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    5,505

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Quote Originally Posted by ditkoofseppala View Post
    Sandy, it is precisely because there is no such animal, nor even anything particularly close, that objective standards of image fidelity would be so nice, so that one machine might be systematically compared with others and the prospective purchaser could go for the machine within his price bracket that provided the best compromise highlighting the parameters of image-transfer and operation that matter most to him as an individual. Wading through reams of comparative scans of different images only gives a person brain-fag after a certain point.
    Jeffrey,

    Did you look at the scanner comparison at http://www.largeformatphotography.info/scan-comparison/
    It is far from a perfect comparison, but useful for people who come to this area totally ignorant of the differences between scanners.

    The issue is much more complicated than you appear to understand. There is one level of consumer scanners in the below $1000 range, some of the best models which appear to be good enough for a lot of people. Then, there is a second level that is in price range way beyond $1000, at least 10X $1000, and up to 40X $1000. With one or two exceptions that are not multi-format there is nothing in between in terms of price range, unless you are willing to take risk on pre-owned equipment.

    You can get into a permanent brain-fag but it won't change the facts. The discussion that defined this thread was, essentially, what quality performance is good enough? There is a clear answer to this question for persons who work professionally at the high end, another for persons who do not. It is your responsibility to come to the table with sufficient understanding to ferret out the gist of what people from different backgrounds are saying.

    Sandy King

  6. #66
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Fond du Lac, WI, USA
    Posts
    8,954

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Making "objective" measures of scanner quality is difficult. Not only does one need expensive resolution targets, but scanner settings are complicated, and this leads to difficulties in making comparisons. Finally, these machines require such precision that small manufacturing variances can have a profound impact on quality.

  7. #67

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Rossburn, Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    69

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Finally, these machines require such precision that small manufacturing variances can have a profound impact on quality.
    And yet, the main problem with the V750M Pro appeared to be (judging from the reviews) not so much the potential variability stemming from manufacturing tolerances, but the fact that there was no way to alter the focus of the scanning lenses, and the film holder is a semi-cheesy affair with little spacers to lift it off the scanning bed. Maybe the film is actually at the focal point and maybe it isn't quite! Personally I can't imagine how such a setup could avoid big problems with film flatness, but there you go, what do I know about these machines! Not enough, OBVIOUSLY. Yet I would like to be able to make a non-disastrous purchasing decision without spending months studying the question.

    BTW yes I did look at the scanner comparison, but the V750M Pro wasn't represented among them and I suspect a number of other candidate machines weren't, either. Anyway, my slow Internet connection and obsolete web browser didn't make an easy job of viewing the comparisons. And after awhile I got brain-fag (as stated) from looking at all those images and trying to read my own subjective reactions to them.

    I will stick to my guns and re-state that what we are looking at here is, or ought to be, a strictly PASSIVE analog-to-digital transfer of image densities at a given dpi resolution, plus RGB digitisation of hues in the case of colour images (not that relevant if you're scanning b&w film negatives). No creative artistry is involved until you start Photoshopping the resulting image files (this includes "unsharp-mask" software processing). That being the case, it ought not to be impossible to state and to quantify image fidelity parameters. So much for resolution, so much for accuracy and consistency of dot gain, so much for chromatic aberration (I presume scanners have it), coma and similar optical failings; similar appropriate measurements for the RGB part of it (or CMYK as the case may be); something for acutance or similar overall image-sharpness impression. I'm no expert on these damn machines, I repeat; but it seems strange that evaluating their performance should remain in the realm of witch-doctory.

  8. #68
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Fond du Lac, WI, USA
    Posts
    8,954

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Quote Originally Posted by ditkoofseppala View Post
    And yet, the main problem with the V750M Pro appeared to be (judging from the reviews) not so much the potential variability stemming from manufacturing tolerances, but the fact that there was no way to alter the focus of the scanning lenses, and the film holder is a semi-cheesy affair with little spacers to lift it off the scanning bed. Maybe the film is actually at the focal point and maybe it isn't quite! Personally I can't imagine how such a setup could avoid big problems with film flatness, but there you go, what do I know about these machines! Not enough, OBVIOUSLY. Yet I would like to be able to make a non-disastrous purchasing decision without spending months studying the question.
    Yes, ideal focus height is a big deal with non-autofocusing scanners. But it really isn't hard to come up with a decent DIY holder, or if you prefer pre-made, you could check out Doug Fisher's holders at betterscanning.com. I haven't used them, but they have a very good reputation. Yes, consumer scanner manufactures should make better holders, but apparently it's not cost effective for them to do so.

  9. #69

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    53

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    Ditkoofseppala, the problem is you have a lot of amateurs who you can decide to listen to or ignore. If you want the best answer, just read what Ted and Kirk had to say. They are the pros. That simple, no need to look further. However, they also have the highest standards. So if you are just starting out, do prints 16x20 or smaller, then the epson is enough with 4x5 for many amateurs. Most amateurs/non photographers never see the difference, the images Sears photo studios have look fabulous to them.
    Van, I really don't think you should imply that everyone who buys an Epson or Microtek is an amateur. Stereotyping is well..... And yes, while Ted and Kirk may be knowledgeable, there are plenty of other members here worth listening to. I don't think we need to make this forum any more clique-ish than it already is.

    If anyone wants to become really knowledgeable about scanning and sampling theory, they should start by reading texts by Nyquist and Shannon.

  10. #70

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    London, Sussex, Cornwall
    Posts
    5

    Re: Noob question... scanner for 4 x 5...

    Quote Originally Posted by ditkoofseppala View Post

    BTW yes I did look at the scanner comparison, but the V750M Pro wasn't represented among them and I suspect a number of other candidate machines weren't, either.
    And that's exactly why I asked the question. With respect to all who have tried to help, it was a pretty specific question and no amount of information about other scanners answers it...

Similar Threads

  1. Flatbed scanner reliability: what's your experience?
    By Oren Grad in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 7-Feb-2007, 14:31
  2. Scanner comparison: Epson 4990 scanner added
    By Leigh Perry in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 28-Aug-2006, 05:35
  3. Recommend a scanner
    By Justin F. Knotzke in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 9-May-2005, 11:43
  4. Enlarger or scanner?
    By Ed Eubanks in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 6-Jan-2004, 18:33
  5. Drum scanner: lines appeared
    By Paul Schilliger in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 3-Sep-2000, 12:49

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •