Help! My Folmer & Schwing 7x17 has issues!

[photoevangelist]

As the title says, I need help.

I just received my F&S 7x17 from a seller on the bay. By the sounds of it when I talked to him about the camera, it seems he wasn't the user of the camera. Big warning light there I guess. I would have much rather waited to buy one from one of the members in this forum, but I was in the 30 day wait. Now I see these cameras don't show up often.

My glass came in the mail broken - an issue I'm taking care of now. But now that I received the camera, I'm noticing that someone tried to fix this camera, so many of the parts seem to be missing. I'm a noob to formats above 4x5. So, how do I know this? I just took apart an Eastman 2-D and can tell there are some pieces in this camera that are not functioning well.

Issues:

1. The back swing is working, but not with gears. It's wood scraping on wood, with a center screw to allow this swing movement.

2. There is no front rise. Only a forward shift.

3. If there was a back rail extension, it's been blocked off.

4. Another major problem is that the film holder is stuck to the back of the camera and won't come off.

5. There is a back tilt, but if I unscrew it the knobs fall off. It's not like the Eastman 2-D that has two pieces of wood.at the base of the frame and has a long rod that goes from one knob to the other.

Attached are some photos.

[photoevangelist]

By the way, pardon my mess. I've got a few projects going on in my office as well as doing taxes, in my not so native language!

[William Whitaker]

1. The back swing is working, but not with gears. It's wood scraping on wood, with a center screw to allow this swing movement.

Rear swing on the Folmer doesn't use gears. However, it appears that the locking screws are missing. They could be replaced easily enough.

2. There is no front rise. Only a forward shift.

There is front rise there; I can see it in the photo. The Folmer uses a rising panel secured by the brass thumb nut on the front. Don't know what a "forward shift" is, but you are probably referring to the front tilt.

3. If there was a back rail extension, it's been blocked off.

It didn't have a rear extension. The "T" bracket in the back is standard and original. It is a stop to keep the rear standard from coming off the rail. These banquet cameras weren't originally intended for use with long lenses.

4. Another major problem is that the film holder is stuck to the back of the camera and won't come off.

Are you certain it's stuck? Folmer film holders have a groove instead of a rib lock; they're the reverse of modern holders which have a rib lock which fits into a groove in the camera. The Folmer has a brass strip that engages the groove in the film holder. Take a look at it again and see if it won't come out by lifting/pulling the holder away from the long brass strip on the right side (photographer's right) of the rear standard.

5. There is a back tilt, but if I unscrew it the knobs fall off. It's not like the Eastman 2-D that has two pieces of wood.at the base of the frame and has a long rod that goes from one knob to the other.

The tilt locks are actually little clamps which clamp the brass bracket that has a curve in it that's the radius from the tilt axis. You don't need to loosen them much to adjust the rear tilt.

Judging from your photos the camera seems to be in pretty good condition. The focus knobs look to be replacements that someone turned on a lathe. If that's true, I'm surprised that they didn't turn some locking screws for the rear swing; it would be simple enough. With any luck you should be able to find someone to make some for you. Or you could use some stock off-the-shelf parts if you don't care that it won't look original.

Folmer & Schwing cameras are a little different from other view cameras, so comparing one directly to an Eastman 2D may lead to some confusion as the mechanisms are different. But the Folmers were very well made and beautiful cameras.

[Leonard Robertson]

Ahh, Will saved me quite a bit of typing with his answer. I'll just add a couple of thoughts.

The F&S banquets don't have nearly the bellows draw of Korona banquets, but are known to be much sturdier. I looked in a 1928 catalog which only shows the the 12X20 F&S. It gives the maximum bellows draw for that size as 22 inches. I imagine your 7X17 is somewhat less than that. Extension tracks can be made, but then you need a longer bellows.

I recall when the front rise is used, the entire center panel of the front standard moves up. Loosen the single brass knob beside the lens board opening and the center panel including the brass L shaped piece should move. But it may be sticky from age or humidity. Put your thumbs into the top of the lens board opening and fingers on the top corners of the front standard frame and push up.

Here is a link to some great pictures of a 12X20 F&S which may help you: http://piercevaubel.com/cam/ekc/fsbanq.htm It seems to me the earlier F&Ss used some wooden knobs and the later models used all knurled brass ones.

Len

[photoevangelist]

1. The back swing is working, but not with gears. It's wood scraping on wood, with a center screw to allow this swing movement.

Rear swing on the Folmer doesn't use gears. However, it appears that the locking screws are missing. They could be replaced easily enough.

2. There is no front rise. Only a forward shift.

There is front rise there; I can see it in the photo. The Folmer uses a rising panel secured by the brass thumb nut on the front. Don't know what a "forward shift" is, but you are probably referring to the front tilt.

3. If there was a back rail extension, it's been blocked off.

It didn't have a rear extension. The "T" bracket in the back is standard and original. It is a stop to keep the rear standard from coming off the rail. These banquet cameras weren't originally intended for use with long lenses.

4. Another major problem is that the film holder is stuck to the back of the camera and won't come off.

Are you certain it's stuck? Folmer film holders have a groove instead of a rib lock; they're the reverse of modern holders which have a rib lock which fits into a groove in the camera. The Folmer has a brass strip that engages the groove in the film holder. Take a look at it again and see if it won't come out by lifting/pulling the holder away from the long brass strip on the right side (photographer's right) of the rear standard.

5. There is a back tilt, but if I unscrew it the knobs fall off. It's not like the Eastman 2-D that has two pieces of wood.at the base of the frame and has a long rod that goes from one knob to the other.

The tilt locks are actually little clamps which clamp the brass bracket that has a curve in it that's the radius from the tilt axis. You don't need to loosen them much to adjust the rear tilt.

Judging from your photos the camera seems to be in pretty good condition. The focus knobs look to be replacements that someone turned on a lathe. If that's true, I'm surprised that they didn't turn some locking screws for the rear swing; it would be simple enough. With any luck you should be able to find someone to make some for you. Or you could use some stock off-the-shelf parts if you don't care that it won't look original.

Folmer & Schwing cameras are a little different from other view cameras, so comparing one directly to an Eastman 2D may lead to some confusion as the mechanisms are different. But the Folmers were very well made and beautiful cameras.

Thanks for your reply. I just got off the phone with Louis who helped explain a lot about these cameras. I did get the holder out. It's alot of work to get it out, but it does come out. I would like to get any kind of replacement for those locking screws.

[photoevangelist]

Ahh, Will saved me quite a bit of typing with his answer. I'll just add a couple of thoughts.

The F&S banquets don't have nearly the bellows draw of Korona banquets, but are known to be much sturdier. I looked in a 1928 catalog which only shows the the 12X20 F&S. It gives the maximum bellows draw for that size as 22 inches. I imagine your 7X17 is somewhat less than that. Extension tracks can be made, but then you need a longer bellows.

I recall when the front rise is used, the entire center panel of the front standard moves up. Loosen the single brass knob beside the lens board opening and the center panel including the brass L shaped piece should move. But it may be sticky from age or humidity. Put your thumbs into the top of the lens board opening and fingers on the top corners of the front standard frame and push up.

Here is a link to some great pictures of a 12X20 F&S which may help you: http://piercevaubel.com/cam/ekc/fsbanq.htm It seems to me the earlier F&Ss used some wooden knobs and the later models used all knurled brass ones.

Len

Len, thanks for the link! Those pictures help a lot. With help from Louis, I was able to get the frong rise to work. It's a very different camera from what I'm used to shooting with.

I'm probably going to take Louis's advice and get a barrel lens (or two) for this camera. It seems to make a lot of sense.

[William Whitaker]

I'd start by asking the seller if he/she has the locking screws for the rear swing. From the pictures it looks like this camera may have been apart at some point, so perhaps the screws are still lying around. Barring that, if you could borrow an original to send to a machinist, it could replicated . That would be the best way to do it, but it involves money. I don't recall the thread it uses, but you may be able to find a suitable, albeit non-original, replacement locally.

As Len noted, the earlier versions of this camera did have wooden knobs, but those were the focus knobs only. The rear swing lock knobs would have been knurled brass in either case.

A possibly bigger problem is going to be finding F&S film holders (and ones that don't leak). Modern film holders won't fit. Occasionally (very occasionally) they show up, but may require work. Still, worth asking on this forum; you never know. Another possibility is to have Alan Brubaker make some, but that is expensive and could involve a considerable wait.

On my 12x20 F&S I modified the rear standard to accept modern holders by milling a groove for the light trap (the rib lock). It's simple to do, but you have to make sure everything is right before you commit to the cut; there's no going back. If you're not confident in your woodworking ability, I'd hire it out. And you'll need to check the T-dimension (distance from the face of the rear standard on which the film holder sits to the front of the ground glass). It needs to match a modern film holder. I got lucky on my 12x20 and they were the same, so no further mods were needed. The good thing is that once it's done, you can use modern 7x17 film holders which are fairly plentiful (and reliable).

Keep in mind that these cameras are close to 100 years old. It's remarkable that as many of them are in as good shape as they are. And it's a testament to their build quality. But in that intervening time they've been exposed to a lot of crud. When I got my 12x20 I went over every surface, carefully cleaning it (no solvents!), even using some string in the track grooves in the bed (kind of like flossing) to get the crud out. I then gave everything a good coat of Renaissance Wax, including in the track grooves. Johnson's paste wax would have worked as well, but the other is what I had on hand. The movements are very smooth and the camera looks pretty sharp, too.

I'm probably going to take Louis's advice and get a barrel lens (or two) for this camera. It seems to make a lot of sense.

Why a barrel lens? True, there are a lot of interesting lenses that came only in barrels. But there are lenses available in the 250mm - 360mm range in shutters which would cover this format. Since you're just getting your feet on the ground with this, having one less variable might be a good thing.

[Leonard Robertson]

A woodworker friend sent me this link with a lot of brass knobs and hardware:

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/...7/some-of-the/

There may be something there you could adapt for your missing rear swing knobs. You may not find an exact match to the knurling on the other knobs on the camera, but with the location of them, that may not be really important.

There have been numerous threads on the different LF forums on lenses which cover 7X17. You are lucky you got that size rather than a 12X20 one. 12X20 needs a much larger image circle, and the lenses tend to be a lot more pricey. I agree with Will that a lens in shutter would be more versatile, but I know it depends on your finances too. A barrel lens with a "black hat" or lens cap shutter, or even a front-mount Packard shutter will get you started. A shuttered lens could be added later.

Len

[photoevangelist]

I'd start by asking the seller if he/she has the locking screws for the rear swing. From the pictures it looks like this camera may have been apart at some point, so perhaps the screws are still lying around. Barring that, if you could borrow an original to send to a machinist, it could replicated . That would be the best way to do it, but it involves money. I don't recall the thread it uses, but you may be able to find a suitable, albeit non-original, replacement locally.

As Len noted, the earlier versions of this camera did have wooden knobs, but those were the focus knobs only. The rear swing lock knobs would have been knurled brass in either case.

A possibly bigger problem is going to be finding F&S film holders (and ones that don't leak). Modern film holders won't fit. Occasionally (very occasionally) they show up, but may require work. Still, worth asking on this forum; you never know. Another possibility is to have Alan Brubaker make some, but that is expensive and could involve a considerable wait.

On my 12x20 F&S I modified the rear standard to accept modern holders by milling a groove for the light trap (the rib lock). It's simple to do, but you have to make sure everything is right before you commit to the cut; there's no going back. If you're not confident in your woodworking ability, I'd hire it out. And you'll need to check the T-dimension (distance from the face of the rear standard on which the film holder sits to the front of the ground glass). It needs to match a modern film holder. I got lucky on my 12x20 and they were the same, so no further mods were needed. The good thing is that once it's done, you can use modern 7x17 film holders which are fairly plentiful (and reliable).

Keep in mind that these cameras are close to 100 years old. It's remarkable that as many of them are in as good shape as they are. And it's a testament to their build quality. But in that intervening time they've been exposed to a lot of crud. When I got my 12x20 I went over every surface, carefully cleaning it (no solvents!), even using some string in the track grooves in the bed (kind of like flossing) to get the crud out. I then gave everything a good coat of Renaissance Wax, including in the track grooves. Johnson's paste wax would have worked as well, but the other is what I had on hand. The movements are very smooth and the camera looks pretty sharp, too.



Why a barrel lens? True, there are a lot of interesting lenses that came only in barrels. But there are lenses available in the 250mm - 360mm range in shutters which would cover this format. Since you're just getting your feet on the ground with this, having one less variable might be a good thing.

Thanks for your advice again. I just tried contacting Richard Ritter and Sandy King about modifications. I know if one can't maybe the other can or could point me in the right direction of where I can have a modification performed. I assume I'd no longer be able to use the original F&S Holder or get it modified as well? If I have to have the original holder modified as well, I might want to just try to sell the original holder. Perhaps someone is looking for an original holder.

Lou's advice was to use a barrel lens because most of the exposures on a F&S banquet camera will be long at f64 and that it's better to use lenses without elements behind the lens board that would block the camera from maximizing the front rise that is so limited. I indeed find myself using the front rise a lot in my compositions with 4x5.

[photoevangelist]

A woodworker friend sent me this link with a lot of brass knobs and hardware:

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/...7/some-of-the/

There may be something there you could adapt for your missing rear swing knobs. You may not find an exact match to the knurling on the other knobs on the camera, but with the location of them, that may not be really important.

There have been numerous threads on the different LF forums on lenses which cover 7X17. You are lucky you got that size rather than a 12X20 one. 12X20 needs a much larger image circle, and the lenses tend to be a lot more pricey. I agree with Will that a lens in shutter would be more versatile, but I know it depends on your finances too. A barrel lens with a "black hat" or lens cap shutter, or even a front-mount Packard shutter will get you started. A shuttered lens could be added later.

Len

Len, that is a very useful link! Thanks for sharing. I hope others will benefit from that link as well!