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Thread: Reality Check on Prices

  1. #1

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    Reality Check on Prices

    I'm finally making the foray in LF photography and have started to acquire the big ticket items: 4x5 camera, lens, tripod and head. These have eaten up most of my budget, but there's still a long list of small items that I need. I need a reality check though on some of the prices that I'm seeing. What should a person new to LF pay for the following:

    1. Loupe- I've seen these from $8 to $150
    2. Light Meter- These start at $150; should I just use my Canon 40D?
    3. Dark Cloth- Do I really need to spend $60 for a piece of cloth?
    4. Backpack- Here it might make sense at least to spend $150
    5. Scanner- Do I need this starting out? Is a good one like $700?
    6. Filters- I'd like to spend a fair bit of money here b/c they actually affect your image
    7. Cable Release- what kind do you want exactly?

    Misc. other stuff:

    7. Lens Wrench
    8. Lens Wrap
    9. 4x5 negative sleeves
    10. Ansel Adam books 1 & 2

    Out of the list above, where would you prioritize spending money? What can you skimp on or forget entirely?

  2. #2

    Join Date
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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    1. An $8 loupe will work OK. There are other inexpensive alternatives, such as an old cheap beat-up 50mm lens from a 35mm camera - just flip it and look through the rear - it becomes a high quality loupe. But then on the forum other people will swear by a expensive tilting loupe by Silvestri. Pfft but to each their own.

    Personally I use a Horseman hood loupe that I think cost $80, it is longer so it can be used with the metal folding focusing hoods I like to use with my cameras. It is 7 or 8x but that is a personal preference, many people prefer a 4x loupe. Part of it depends on the kind of fresnel screen you might use, too high a power amplified the distraction of the screen's pattern. I don't like fresnels for that reason. You simply have to settle ~ or try a few options, returning or reselling what doesn't work.

    Buying from a dealer that has a good return policy (KEH, MPEX for used, B&H for new) is less hassle than asking a private sale seller to take a return that they really shouldn't have to. On the classified ads here on this forum, most of the stuff is of good quality but being traded as people define what it is they really like to work with (or they are getting divorced because they shoot too much, those are always the best deals). If you buy good used gear with a modicum of research, then you can resell it at nearly the same price and break even as you experiment.

    2. If you want to use the Zone System techniques, even if only for exposure if not the whole cult, then a good spot meter is important. A Pentax Digital Spot meter is $250-$300 used (they aren't made new anymore). But if you just want a good general purpose incident and reflected meter, then a $150 new one or a $75 used one will be great. The more expensive the meter, in general, the more stupidly feature-burdened and impossible to use it becomes. Classic, always popular meters under $100 used are Gossen Luna-Pro variants and Minolta Auto-Meter IVFs. Personally I find Sekonics funky but the people who drop $$$ them seem to like them fine. It's like college, if you spend a lot of money on it then it is the greatest college in the world.

    That said, the meter in a modern DSLR is probably better than most of the photographers here. The caution is that the meter will not exactly match your film ISO or color perception. You're not going to be that far off either though so simply shoot and make adjustments if you feel your film is under or overexposed consistently. You'll be fine with it to start.

    3. Most people will tell you to use a black t-shirt instead of a dark cloth. I most often use a dark shirt, rain coat, or windbreaker. It is not as perfectly dark as that $60 BlackJacket but it works fine. After watching view camera classes in action, I think some people spend way too much time ditzing around under the darkcloth or they can't make up their mind anyway. They need Gore-Tex dark clothes because they spend so long under them.

    Again to each their own, I'm not a hater, just an observer.

    4. I don't know, I just toss stuff into a common backpack rather than a dedicated photo pack. You can get more into a smaller pack if you wrap and pad it individually - and a view camera can be wrapped in a jacket or dark cloth, lenses can go into Tupperware containers, Domke Lenswraps or other pouches can be used for smaller parts. I just toss it all in and let God sort it out, the heavy stuff works its way to the bottom ;-p The advantage of using a non-photo backpack includes the fact that you can pick the best suspension system that fits you, instead of the crudeness of a $300 photo backpack where the straps were an afterthought. All those padded dividers and weird photo carrying gizmos weight a lot too. Perhaps if you were taking a DSLR with a 400mm lens it would be a different story but we are mostly lugging little box like things.

    5. Yeah no point settling for an intermediate scanner, either get an Epson 700 or 750 or bottom feed and find an older model Epson 4990. You may have to disassemble and clean the platen, the cheap plastic off-gases. Unfortunately scanner design is stagnant and no new competitive products are in sight. The best option is to send out for drum scans of course but you still want a decent flatbed with an 8x10 scanning area (it should have a "transparency unit" in the lid to shine a light through the film - most cheap scanners do not have this or it is undersized) for proofing. I use Epson scans carefully done for up to 11x17 prints and they are quite nice, fine for prepress and portfolios. I think the 700 is as good as the 750 so at least that saves you a few $. It sucks they don't build them better for the money but they got us by the @@#@#@#.

    6. Filters do affect the image but nobody says you have to use them. If you are the average landscapist backpacker type who wants a dramatic B&W large-format image then start with one light yellow screw-in filter. Don't get too many because it will just get too complicated too early. Be simple and consistent with film, exposure, filter usage, etc. You can get adapter rings to use a larger filter on smaller diameter lenses. Avoid the cheapest plastic filters but don't waste $100 on some uber filter either. Don't get into gradated or fancy stuff until you shoot some decent basic stuff. I haven't used a filter in ten years, myself, I think it's over-controlling most of the time and most scenes don't need them.

    Of course for the past few years I only use Kodak Portra 400 color negative film and use the color conversion capabilities of Photoshop to adjust how each color converts to grey. So in that regard it is like having an infinite stack of completely adjustable filters in post - so my advice to use one filter is yet another paradox in my advice.

    7. You want a spare cable release, lol. But there is no point in getting too worked up over them. I prefer short cloth $12 Gepe releases that are inexpensive but still good quality, I screw one into each lens to save the hassle of always switching them. After you shoot a while try a longer one and learn which you prefer. The metal and vinyl covered releases are stiff and more durable, but I don't like stiff releases.

    ~~~

    A lens wrench is just a flat piece of metal cut to fit the retaining rings on popular Copal/Compur mounted lenses, you see them with "name" brands for under $20 on eBay or at the dealers. I like using them rather than fudging it, but you can carefully fudge and tighten those retaining rings with a screwdriver slanted into the slot. Just don't come crying to me if it slips and messes up the shutter.

    Lenswrap? - well then you don't need a padded photo backpack anymore ;-) unless you wear a belt and suspenders. Even free bubblewrap works well if you are on a budget.

    I use Printfile page-sized 4-up sleeves in three ring (archival!) binders for my film, plus other sizes for other formats. Lots of other people do too. You gotta put it somewhere!

    Ansel Adams? Who's that?

    A $4 box of Ziploc bags for lenses and film holders is really a good idea and better than spending a lot more money on some dedicated dirt-holding case. Add some rubberbands and a roll of bubblewrap and save the $16 a Lenswrap would cost.

    I hope you got a good economical camera and a regular, normal lens in a good shutter. Then you spent the most on a really solid tripod because that is the very best investment, imho. I do this professionally/almost 30 years now/used a lot of cameras and I mostly use a normal $600 4x5 camera with a $400 normal 150mm lens, period. The tripod cost more than the camera. Keep it simple.

    Good luck! Mostly you need to just go out and shoot and then you refine after a little experience, not before. Like any other complex activity (fly fishing, woodworking) you can get absorbed by the minutia and intimidated from actual photography (as in the case of many "experts" in any of these fields!)
    Last edited by Frank Petronio; 7-Nov-2012 at 23:41.

  3. #3
    ScottPhotoCo's Avatar
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    Well said Frank.

    Tim
    www.ScottPhoto.co

  4. #4

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    May 2012
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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    One more option, if you want to cheap-out on the light meter: there's a free iPhone app called "Light Meter" that works exactly as it should. One less extra accessory to lug around.

  5. #5

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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    I'm not sure where you live, but the best use of all that startup money would be to first sign up for a good workshop where they specialize in large format photography.
    Wilhelm (Sarasota)

  6. #6

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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    1. If you're shooting 4x5, get a Fuji loupe 'cause everyone else seems to have one. If not any cheap ol' loupe will work
    2. Use your Canon. Don't spend any more $$ than you have to at this stage of the game
    3. A black, thick t-shirt or sweat shirt will work
    4. Use what you've got. After you've packed your 4x5 on a few hikes you'll better know exactly what you want in a pack
    5. A set of trays, a graduate and a piece of heavy glass work fine, maybe $30 if you buy new. Quite a bit less if used.
    6. Depends on your lens. You may already have a set of filters that fit if you were a Nikon SLR shoot in the previous life.
    7. This you do need if your lens has a shutter. I prefer the Gepe Pro, with Minette (from Calumet) second. Good ones like the Gepe and Minette aren't expensive either. Splurge.
    7 (see what you did there?) You won't need one until you need one, and you may actually never need one. Don't worry about it until you do.
    8. If your lens is mounted on a lensboard, use the lens caps, stick the whole enchilada in a zip lock baggie and either keep it in a small cardboard box, or wrap in your black t-shirt/dark cloth for protection.
    9. I like Printfiles but Savage look cooler.
    10.Get all three books in the series and 40 Examples as well, but don't let that keep you from going out and shooting.
    You forgot the film!
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  7. #7
    IanG's Avatar
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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    Frank and John have really said it all.

    If you can get to a camera fair or swap meet then you can save a lot of money on all the items you've listed. Alterbately watch the sales/wanted adverts here and APUG.

    Ian

  8. #8

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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    As for a darkcloth, I went to a fabric store and found a lightweight cloth such that it was hard to light though two sheets of cloth. I brought enough for my wife to kindly sew it together for me. It worked very well.

  9. #9

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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    It's mostly just a matter of how much inconvenience/PITA you're willing to tolerate for how much saving in cost. Sure, you can use a tee shirt or something similar for a dark cloth. But a hood-type such as the BTZS hoods sold by The View Camera Store for about $50 will give you some ventilation and help keep condensation off the ground glass in cold or humid conditions.

    You can use your digital camera instead of a dedicated light meter, or for that matter you can use the Sunny 16 system and dispense with a light meter entirely. Neither will give you the degree of control that a good spot meter will give, and your digital camera is probably bigger and heavier than many meters, but the camera will work after a fashion.

    Filters? Forget them. Since you're scanning I assume you're printing digitally and using Photoshop or a similar program. The filter effects in Photoshop do a better job than traditional b&w filters and probably color too. The only filters I use these days are a polarizer and a couple graduated ND filters though in a pinch I could get away without them too.

    Backpack? Again, how much inconvenience are you willing to tolerate? If you have a high degree of tolerance for discomfort and don't carry a lot of gear you could buy the kind of backpacks students use to carry books. Or maybe a cheap hiking backpack would work. Personally I like the convenience of a dedicated backpack with compartments for lenses and other things not to mention comfort. You can spend almost as much as you want on a backpack. IMHO that's not an area on which to skimp and save money. A good comfortable, convenient backpack will make your photography much more enjoyable than some jury-rigged setup.

    Scanner? Depends on the purpose for which you're printing and how big you think your maximum print will be. If just for the web almost any scanner will do. If you plan to make huge prints for gallery exhibitions $700 probably won't do it. In between? I'd get an Epson 700. That will allow you to make prints up to 17" wide and about as long as you want. But if you don't plan to print larger than say 8x10 or 11x14 there are other scanners that probably will do as good a job for less money. However, I don't know enough about them to suggest one.

    Same is true for everything else you mention - how much money will you save by going cheap and what's your tolerance for the resulting inconvenience? E.g. you could buy one cable release and move it from one lens to another as needed. But you can buy workable cable releases for about $5. And it's a real PITA to have to remove a cable release from one lens and put it on another every time you change lenses.

    You didn't mention film holders but you'll need at least one to start with. I buy the old wood ones used. They do as well as new plastic ones if they aren't warped and since not too many people use them they're usually cheap. I enjoy fixing them up to look nice too.

    In general I'd suggest buying the bare minimum you need to make a photograph in a reasonable degree of comfort and convenience until you know large format photography is for you. If you buy used wisely you can probably sell a camera and lenses for about what you paid for them. But selling things like dark-cloths, backpacks, etc. isn't so easy.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  10. #10

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    Re: Reality Check on Prices

    Here's how I would prioritized (by item number, from first to buy to last):

    10
    7
    1
    2
    3
    6
    (whatever else you want/need)

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