Sorry to disagree, E.,Originally Posted by E. von Hoegh
Lenses in the modern Sironar family are based on the Plasmat design, but they're not Plasmats.
In particular...
1) The front cell is larger diameter than the rear (they're the same in the standard Plasmat) resulting in a wider angle of view.
2) The use of ED glass to reduce aberrations.
This is sort of a pointless argument, based entirely on semantics.
- Leigh
All you care about are the specs. You'll find few focal lengths at which you have a choice of lens designs.
While it's good to know the basic characteristics of different designs, the manufacturers have already
done a lot of research to choose the optimal design for a given application.
- Leigh
Nomenclature aside, a 210 Rodenstock Sironar-W is a rare and valuable lens not based at all on the Geronar design. Some people will pay their eye teeth for one.
The Rodenstock Geronars were their "cheap" "generic" line. Fine lenses but 10x difference in price.
It may be a good candidate to sell or trade for the 360, but be aware of its value. If you do trade, you'd get a top notch 360 in exchange and maybe some cash too. Of course finding a buyer is always difficult with exotic gear but be patient and don't give it away.
I agree. They're all Plasmat types, which is not to say they're Plasmats. Fine point of semantics.
I think most LF lenses of moderate FL are based on the Plasmat design.
Other designs include the Rodenstock Grandagon, Apo-Ronar, and Imagon.
Exceptions by category would be short FL and long FL lenses.
In both cases other designs are used because the FFL becomes unreasonable.
On edit:
There's actually a good reason for pursuing this fine point of distinction...
Lens design has evolved rapidly with the introduction of computer optimization.
Making the simple statement that a given lens is a "Plasmat" implies that it will perform the same as any other "Plasmat",
and that is definitely not the case. For example, an Apo-Sironar-S design is distinctly different from a Sironar-N, even
though both are based on the original Plasmat design.
- Leigh
Last edited by Leigh; 3-Aug-2012 at 09:59.
I guess now you guys get to go film holder shopping!
I steal time at 1/125th of a second, so I don't consider my photography to be Fine Art as much as it is petty larceny.
WHy not begin with a flatbed like a Kodak 2D. Much less expensive, large lens board, not appreciably heavier than a field and reasonably easy to carry for short distances. Any lens you choose wil fit on the large lensboard.
Jim -
I thought about one of the older field cameras like a 2D or B&J to start out with, just because of the reasonable price which they can sometimes be got. But now, after this rather long discussion on the finer points of large cameras, I was able to find a really nice deal on a Sinar F2 8x10. In the end, since I almost always stay near the car when photographing, the extra weight won't be too much of a liability and I think I will appreciate the additional capability of the rail camera.
Beside all that, this kit is complete with a couple lenses, including the apparently much lauded APO Sironar W 210. Which I am fairly excited about. In the past I have drooled over the massive Super Symmar 210, which as an even larger IC, but I think this Rodenstock 210 will keep me happy for awhile. So the 8x10 F2, 6 nice film holders, extra rails, dark cloth, a nice tripod and even a Pelican case to keep it all in was a deal I couldn't pass up.
Anyhow, I had tried to say thanks to everyone in an earlier post for all the help and advice, which made this decision a much easier one to make. Before this, I hadn't really even considered the possibility of anything other than a wooden field camera for the step up in format. We'll see how this one works out soon....
R, Phil
No, Sironar is a model name for their plasmat (note small "p") design. The plasmat is an air-spaced derivative of the dagor design, and provides a wide field compared to the standard normal lens of yesteryear, which was a tessar design. Sironar is a model name used by Rodenstock.
Schneider's plasmat is the Symmar, at least up through the Symmar-S.
There was never a Sinar-labeled lens that was a Rodenstock Geronar, which is a triplet design intended for a low price point (but they still work very well at small apertures). Later plasmat designs have gotten more sophisticated with the use of different glasses and design methods. The result of that evolution has been lenses like the Sironar-S, which is NOT to be confused with the Sinar Sinaron-S. The Rodenstock Sironar-S is a newer, wider design than the Sironar-N/Sinaron-S. The Sironar-W was a previous wider design as an alternative to the N, and available at the same time as the N. They are nice and not terribly common--keep yours. But they are still Sironars--plasmat designs derived from the dagor.
There are wider designs. The Rodenstock Grandagon is similar to the Schneider Super Angulon, and is like two retrofocus wide-angle lenses in opposition. Big and heavy for their speed and focal length, but a very flat, wide field providing lots of coverage for their focal length. The design derives somewhat from the Zeiss Biogon.
The Sironar-N and the APO-Sironar-N (basically the same lens) was Rodenstock's name for a lens that they also sold through Sinar. With a Sinar badge, it is a Sinaron-S. (A Sinaron-W is a Rodenstock Grandagon).
Sinar just bought them with their label applied to them. Rodenstock's quality control was sufficient for Sinar not to feel the need to perform their own testing. In more ancient times, Linhof would specially test the lenses they applied their badge to. But Linhof just applied "Linhof" to the lens, they did not rename in the lens in the process.
Calumet's Caltars have been made by everyone at one time or another. That takes a whole chapter to explain.
Yes, it's confusing. But you'll pick it up.
Rick "summarizing" Denney
A Sinar or Linof selected lens is worth a little more because of the reputation of the two companies and the implied promise of superior quality control over the OEM brand.
A Calumet Caltar is worth a little less because of the company offered slightly discounted lenses compared to the OEM brand.
People will argue that there is no difference between any of them and experience shows that they are all fine lenses, but the superstitious side of me will still kick in an extra $20 for the better brand when it comes down to two equal lenses. I've never heard of a bad Linhof lens unless it was abused.
I might actually shy away from the Sinar lenses unless I know their history. Some originated in Sinar DB shutter mounts and may have been clumsily remounted into Copals at a later date, sans important shims or ignoring correct spacing requirements. This would be very uncommon but I know it has happened, and you will often see lens cells paired with shutters from different eras, or "wrong" aperture scales on the shutter - those are best to avoid unless you want to pay for them to be checked out by a good technician. Or are "OK-ed" one of the supreme experts here of course ;-p
Phil,
Was this the camera that you were biddubg on: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=230826264026
That is a nice set-up and I "watched" it to see what the ending selling price would be. The only thing that it lacked, IMO, was a case to hold everything in and that would add to the final price. The ending price for my kit was ~$1400 after I had purchased the GG protector, tripod and head, 5 new Fidelity Elite holders, Lens, 8x10 BTZS focusing cloth, GG protector latch (one was missing with the rivet broken off) and paying $50 to have a rivet made and installed. The neat thing aout sticking with the Toyo is that I can convert the Robos to 8x10 with parts from the 8x10G and use the Robos parts on the 8x10G. One adaptor works on both cameras so I don't have to worry about if the lens boards will work when switching cameras. Makes life simpler.
Congrats on your purchase of the F2. That's a fine camera and I'm sure you will enjoy it immensely. BTW, I have found the 360mm lens the perfect FL for the 8x10 - much better that the 300mm.
Thomas
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