Jay's photographic seeing (or at least the visible evidence of seeing) is limited to one subject only, and mostly small format anyway, which is probably why he thinks workshops are snake oil.
Jay's photographic seeing (or at least the visible evidence of seeing) is limited to one subject only, and mostly small format anyway, which is probably why he thinks workshops are snake oil.
David
Well, I think there’s a little bit of truth in the (overstated) snake oil remarks.
The same people who will purchase yet another expensive lens to “improve” their photography often attend workshops w/ the same extravagant expectations.
However, other photographers know how to select appropriate workshops to better make & better achieve future goals – just as a talented writer knows how to read great literature to improve how he reads and writes…
So count me among the workshop supporters ... w/ key reservations.
I can't prove my view of " photographic seeing" is correct any more than you can prove it's not, but your analogy is false, all the same. By your reasoning, photographers who never attended workshops on "seeing photographically", would be doomed to mediocrity, and those who do attend would be ensured success, but we know that's not the case. The best photographers neither hawk nor attend such workshops, they just work and evolve a visual signature the old fashioned way, by dedication and persistence.Originally Posted by Dakotah Jackson
David--
Just keep telling yourself your "banality" is something other than boring mediocrity.
I've attended probably 15 workshops, at least one with every photographer mentioned so far in this thread and some not mentioned (e.g. Tillman Crane, Ruth Bernhard, Craig Stephens). With one exception (who will go unnamed but who isn't anyone mentioned in this thread) I've never attended a workshop that I thought was a waste of time and money. I always come away with something useful, whether it's some technique or just an attitude or approach to photography. And just the experience of getting away from home and spending a week or two with a group of serious photographers has been very enjoyable. I'd strongly recommend workshops with excellent instructors devoted to some topic of interest and at an appropriate level to anyone who wants to grow photographically.
Brian Ellis
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
a mile away and you'll have their shoes.
This is the kind of overstated generality that makes the internet so worthwhile:
Q: Has anyone experience with X?
A: No, I never use X, why would you ask such a silly question?
or A: you're stupid to use X
or A: No, but my Y is better
---
Reading his books, Barnbaum has a very strong take on things.
Looking at his images, he knows his stuff. I believe Jim Galli
knows whereof he speaks.
One can learn from workshops, and plenty of people
[even some of the 'best photographers'] took workshops from Ansel.
The main thing, in my opinion, is to have a rapport with the work of
the person giving it, and have some very specific goals for yourself.
-Tim
One way to provoke a spirited conversation is to use categorical terms like "nobody", "everybody", "always", "never", "all", "none", etc.
There will "always" be someone compelled to reply
I never implied one cannot learn from workshops -- I learned from the one I attended with Vaughn Hutchins -- but I learned techniques specific to carbon printing, not "photographic seeing", which I believe is not something that can, or that needs to be taught in this era of ubiquitous camera images. An understanding of the way cameras render images is so ingrained into every modern person it's practically innate, whether or not it can be articulated by any given person. I've read essays by Michael A Smith, Bruce Barnbaum and many others on the subject of "photographic seeing", and they all read similarly -- like sales pitches meant to make the author seem authoritative or especially gifted, with the promise they can impart that gift to others, for a fee, of course. I think it's all nonsense and wouldn't waste my time, let alone my money on one of these workshops, but anyone who feels differently has just as much right to their opinions as I have to mine, and maybe they will benefit by a workshop with someone they admire.
Ok, let's see if a real-life example helps here. As I mentioned, a couple of years ago I attended Bruce's Death Valley workshop (Jack Dykinga and Jay Dusard co-led with Bruce). We photographed in the morning and critiqued participants' portfolios in the evening. Most of the participants were accomplished photographers or very advanced amateurs. One of the participants was a 20 year old who accompanied his father. He wielded a consumer grade dslr while most other participants worked with 4x5. It's safe to say that most of the group didn't take him seriously given his age and kit. He was the last participant to show his work to the group. It was amazing. Jaws dropped. This kid had an innate sense of vision, particularly chiaroscuro, that most of the rest envied greatly. Even Bruce was taken aback. We spent a long time talking about what he saw and how he saw it. It struck me as having a lot to do with openness to perception. Paying attention to the broad and specific.
Anyway, my point is that we don't all have great vision. I don't. This kid did. But we can improve our vision. I have. That workshop helped.
All the best,
Leo
" I think it's all nonsense and wouldn't waste my time, let alone my money on one of these workshops,"
Those who offer and present the workshops are forever grateful.
There's no need to get defensive, or take my opinions personally, since nothing I've written has been directed to you, and since you don't offer "photographic seeing" workshops. Or, do you always take opinions contrary to your own very personally?
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