Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

[RichardSperry]

I've always thought that the term "fine art" applied to commercial art that was suppose to be better than all the mundane banal crap art like Bob Ross or Thomas Kinkade. (I won't go into who I think photographic equivalents are).

Gallery art that has not become Art, yet. A label applied by gallery owners and salespeople, or modest curators. To sell people on the idea to part money from purse and wallet. When I see the term it usually is attached to some means of sales, a sign on a gallery wall or window for example.

I just assumed that fine art photography was that same sort of meaning applied to photography.

[Brian Ellis]

Steiglitz may have been the first to complain about easy photography making everyone think they are an artist. In fact, he may have been the first to say that photography was dead, in the 1890s.

I don't remember reading that Stieglitz said photography was dead though I certainly could be wrong. It's just that I've read quite a lot (though far from everything) by and about Stieglitz and don't remember reading that he ever said that. But if you have a source I'd be interested in seeing it since I've been on kind of a Stieglitz kick lately. Or are you possibly thinking of Emerson, who after learning about H&D curves said that photography was too mechanical to be a legitimate art form (or something along those lines).

FWIW (nothing to anyone except me) in my own mind I divide photographs into two categories, those that document a subject and those that do more. I consider the latter "art."

[Scott Davis]

Wow! You guys are sensitive! I wonder, do you (Scott) think this guy complimented everyone present? Sure, he could have been more delicate in his phrasing, but he paid a compliment nonetheless. I suspect he meant by "shop comparables" that he had a limited budget, and wasn't ready to commit to your work until he'd seen others. Not everyone is as articulate as you guys are. If you were selling your work at Christie's, you would surely encounter more refined conversation, but do you really think the underlying sentiment would be fundamentally different?

Jay - I have no problem with him saying, honestly, "my budget is kinda tight and I have to think about it". I realize that he might not be able to afford it. But if that's the case, just say so. Hell, if he'd asked nicely, I'd probably have negotiated something with him. But that wasn't how he put it.

Yes, it was a compliment to say how much he liked my work. And I appreciate that compliment - I accepted it with grace and humility, because I always appreciate when anyone likes my work enough to say something about it. But to turn around and say that he has to comparison shop, like it's a Camry/Accord/Mazda6 decision? Again, if you're trying to find a way out of buying something because you can't afford it but don't want to say that, there's always, "I'm trying to decide between your work and another piece. Can I take your card and get back to you?" or the classic, "I have to get my spouse's approval". Or just say nothing. The insult was in the implication that the work could be comparison shopped.

[Jay DeFehr]

The insult was in the implication that the work could be comparison shopped.

Scott,

I'm sorry, but you implied the work could be comparison shopped when put a price tag on it. It is disingenuous, at best, to imply a potential customer has "commodified" work you've offered for sale. And it's just regular old egotistical to imply your work is incomparable. Your story is a good example of why some people hesitate to interact with "artists".

[John Kasaian]

Anyone can buy a musical instrument and struggle out a tune.
Everyone I know keeps a pocket knife and can try carving something.
Most people have access to a kitchen and cook daily.
I've seen watercolor sets come free with some kid's meals at burger franchises.
Too many people have cell phones.

Are all the results considered Masterpieces? Fine Art? Yet there is no denying the reality of soulful music, beautiful sculptures, memorable meals and masterpiece paintings, is there? Are artistic photographs any different?

With digital, I'm surprised how many photographs are taken and how few ever get printed and how little the ones that are printed are usually appreciated.
On travels I'd take my point and shoot Olympus, eagerly await the return of my film from the camera store(better quality than the drug store in most cases) and relive the trip by selecting which snaps to insert in a small, pocketable album to show friends.
Now I hand my digi over to my bride, who downloads everything and its put on a disk. Maybe she'll have some printed for her scrap booking. The closest thing we have to sharing photos is posting on her facebook or handing the camera over to someone who sees them on the itty bitty screen.

I like my hand made 8x10 contacts. Call it Art, Fine Art, or just crap---it's now something quite rare and I find that both refreshing and personally rewarding to pursue. I'm stealing images of time in 1/125ths of a second so I don't consider my photography to be Fine Art as much as I consider it to be petty larceny

"I'm stealing images of time at 1/125ths of a second so I don't consider my photography to be Fine Art as much as I consider it to be petty larceny" ought to be my signature!

[Jay DeFehr]

Anyone can buy a musical instrument and struggle out a tune.
Everyone I know keeps a pocket knife and can try carving something.
Most people have access to a kitchen and cook daily.
I've seen watercolor sets come free with some kid's meals at burger franchises.
Too many people have cell phones.

Are all the results considered Masterpieces? Fine Art? Yet there is no denying the reality of soulful music, beautiful sculptures, memorable meals and masterpiece paintings, is there? Are artistic photographs any different?

With digital, I'm surprised how many photographs are taken and how few ever get printed and how little the ones that are printed are usually appreciated.
On travels I'd take my point and shoot Olympus, eagerly await the return of my film from the camera store(better quality than the drug store in most cases) and relive the trip by selecting which snaps to insert in a small, pocketable album to show friends.
Now I hand my digi over to my bride, who downloads everything and its put on a disk. Maybe she'll have some printed for her scrap booking. The closest thing we have to sharing photos is posting on her facebook or handing the camera over to someone who sees them on the itty bitty screen.

I like my hand made 8x10 contacts. Call it Art, Fine Art, or just crap---it's now something quite rare and I find that both refreshing and personally rewarding to pursue. I'm stealing images of time in 1/125ths of a second so I don't consider my photography to be Fine Art as much as I consider it to be petty larceny

"I'm stealing images of time at 1/125ths of a second so I don't consider my photography to be Fine Art as much as I consider it to be petty larceny" ought to be my signature!

Digital has made image sharing easier, and more common than prints ever could. Soon, digital displays will eclipse prints in image quality, and digital prints will eclipse chemical ones, though fewer images will be printed. The "itty bitty" displays of most smart phones are bigger than the old wallet-sized prints people carried around, usually dog eared, in some yellowing plastic sheathe, and these days, who doesn't own a tablet? Oh, and the fact that these same phones and tablets can also make (even at 1/125th second) and disseminate images, and video, is something our old leather trifolds could never do, in any fashion.

The digitization of the wallet is interesting, in itself. It began, of course, with the digitization of currency -- the credit card. Wallets could be made much slimmer when they needed only to carry credit cards, photo IDs, and maybe a few bills for small purchases that don't need to be tracked. My last wallet was this type, a very compact credit card holder with a magnetic clip for bills. Even so, it was one more item to find a pocket for, and to be sure I didn't forget. When I went to the Apple store to get a cover for my iPad, I found a nifty leather iPhone cover with slots in the back for credit cards/ID. Goodbye CC holder/ money clip! This iPhone cover/ CC holder is, of course, a bulky hybrid itself, and will soon be relieved of the need to carry CCs and IDs, as that information is better stored inside the device than outside it. So, the wallet will go the way of the wristwatch, two things I associate intimately with my late father. I can see his wallet, wristwatch and ring as clearly as if they were actually before me now. My dad never owned a cell phone, but my Mother does. None of my children ever owned a wristwatch, but they all have wallets, for now.

[Scott Davis]

Scott,

I'm sorry, but you implied the work could be comparison shopped when put a price tag on it. It is disingenuous, at best, to imply a potential customer has "commodified" work you've offered for sale. And it's just regular old egotistical to imply your work is incomparable. Your story is a good example of why some people hesitate to interact with "artists".

Jay-

you've never interacted with me in person so you have no idea of how I comport myself with customers or even just looky-loos and tire-kickers. Yes, I do in fact think my work is better - otherwise why would I put it out for display and critique? You've got to have some ego to make work and display it in the first place even if you put no price tag on it. I fully understand that I'm making my work a commodity in the sense of something that can be bought and sold by putting a price tag on it. But to say that, to take a personal example, you could comparison shop this image



is fallacious. You're really going to go out browsing for other people's pictures of the Pearl Dive Oyster Bar, at night, with a Vespa parked in front? How are you going to comparison shop that image? Is there a mall where you can go to different vendors selling similar images of the Pearl Dive Oyster Bar and see who has it cheapest? Or would you find multiple vendors in a single location who are selling identical prints of the same image at different prices?

Look at it for a moment from the flip side - you say my ego is sufficiently grandiose that I'm a reason people don't want to talk to artists. I say your response is an example of the entitlement mentality that expects artists to create for your entertainment for free. Yeah, I should spend $1000 and give up days of my spare time after my full-time day job to go hang out at an art exhibit to just nod politely and kiss the ass of people who come by to look at my work in the hopes that they might COMPLIMENT my work? It's far less expensive and far more productive to hire the services of a dominatrix.

[Jay DeFehr]

Jay-

you've never interacted with me in person so you have no idea of how I comport myself with customers or even just looky-loos and tire-kickers. Yes, I do in fact think my work is better - otherwise why would I put it out for display and critique? You've got to have some ego to make work and display it in the first place even if you put no price tag on it. I fully understand that I'm making my work a commodity in the sense of something that can be bought and sold by putting a price tag on it. But to say that, to take a personal example, you could comparison shop this image is fallacious. You're really going to go out browsing for other people's pictures of the Pearl Dive Oyster Bar, at night, with a Vespa parked in front? How are you going to comparison shop that image? Is there a mall where you can go to different vendors selling similar images of the Pearl Dive Oyster Bar and see who has it cheapest? Or would you find multiple vendors in a single location who are selling identical prints of the same image at different prices?

Look at it for a moment from the flip side - you say my ego is sufficiently grandiose that I'm a reason people don't want to talk to artists. I say your response is an example of the entitlement mentality that expects artists to create for your entertainment for free. Yeah, I should spend $1000 and give up days of my spare time after my full-time day job to go hang out at an art exhibit to just nod politely and kiss the ass of people who come by to look at my work in the hopes that they might COMPLIMENT my work? It's far less expensive and far more productive to hire the services of a dominatrix.

Scott,

You're right, I've never met you in person. All I know about you is what you've written about yourself, and it is on that basis that I've commented.

If you think your work is better than others', I assume you'd price yours higher to reflect that difference, or do you think your work is better than all other work? What you seem to be overlooking is the obvious fact that there is more than one basis for comparison. I doubt there are several images identical to yours for the potential buyer to compare with, but I'm sure there are several within the same price range, and that is surely the basis for comparison the potential buyer had in mind when he mentioned "comparables".

I don't know how you could have drawn the conclusion from my remarks that you should have given your work away for free. The irony is that you expect to be treated as if you were doing your customers a favor, instead of selling a product. I promise I will never insult you by complimenting your work.

[Tony Evans]

Cacophony!

[E. von Hoegh]

Cacophony!

More like shitstorm. This always happens when 'fine art" comes up.