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Thread: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

  1. #1

    For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    I'm going to venture into a BW project soon on 4x5. Question: in old time film days obviously I'd buy BW. But today, everyone is getting scans, is there any reason still to go BW film over color film?

    Now I'm not the most adept BW conversion guy in Photoshop. I just add the BW adjustment layer. But I could get more sophisticated, and buy Nik products etc. so hence, reason for this question. thanks

  2. #2

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    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    I'd stick with B&W film, and I would choose the type of film (tabular or traditional) based on the grain structure (sharp/fine or soft/grainy) I want.

    Color turned to black and white has a different look. There are several layers with competing curves and the silver is replaced with dyes. I think this reduces resolution. Chromogenic films exist for the grainless look, if that is a goal.

    It would feel odd to me to use a grain-simulating software to add grain that could have been there in the first place.

  3. #3

    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    thanks Bill, yeah, not going for grain. -- what is tabular vs traditional?

    In short, you feel that BW film will look vastly superior and scanned and converted in PS color?

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    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    I shoot Kodak film, so the Kodak brand tabular grain films are the T-Max family, of which I shoot 4x5 T-Max 400 (TMY-2). I moved to 4x5 to get crisp granite landscapes and found it immediately gave me what I wanted.

    For roll-film formats, I shoot the traditional grain films, Panatomic-X, Plus-X, Tri-X. I've found I can occasionally get 4x5 quality, but the traditional grain film gives me soft pictorialism-type results. It can have high resolution, but the slightly soft grain is better suited to nature shots with soft things like moss versus granite.

    If you are not going for the grain, then Chromogenic Black and White film is worth considering. The results I had when I tried it in the 70's from 35mm were almost grain-free, as with color film the silver is replaced with dyes. This changes the optical property of the negative. Compared to color film, a Chromogenic black and white will have a few layers with different light sensitivity but all with the same color sensitivity. So you get a long exposure latitude, and you don't have layers of color that might have competing edges (and properties that you discard).

    An acquaintance once showed me black and white conversions from Kodachrome slides I think it was, I was disappointed with the jagged artifacts of the images. I believe it was related to the color to black and white conversion.

    Now an advantage of shooting color then converting to Black and White, would be the opportunity to experiment after the fact with different color filters - electronically you could simulate having shot with a red filter and if it was over the top you could try simulating orange.

    p.s. I work for Kodak but the opinions and positions I take are my own and not necessarily those of EKC.

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    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    $$$$$$$ per sheet.

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    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    The answer may depend on your subject (and budget of course). Some subjects don't need much filtering.

    Kodak Portra has very fine "grain" and has a great dynamic range. See http://www.timparkin.co.uk/ for examples, as well as http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/.

    You might decide to shoot only those subjects that already look best in monochrome.

  7. #7

    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    thanks, Vinny, price per sheet probably negligible.

    Bill, do you understand I'm not talking about converting to BW in a real darkroom, I scanning and then maybe going to BW --if color comes out as good as BW.

    Tmax is pretty darn good with grain. What films are chromogenic and are they less grain than Tmax?

    thanks Ken -- forget about filtering. I'm just shooting people portraits. What is your opinion then on this original topic?

  8. #8
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    Chromogenic B&W films are great, I love them - but not available in 4x5, except for the rare expired box of XP2 on the market. XP Super has never, to my knowledge, been made in 4x5. More's the pity - it's a wonderful film for regular printing and should be even better for scanning. I shot a fair amount of 35mm XP2 back when I did my own C41. The only reason I don't shoot it in 35mm and 120 now is that I haven't jumped back into C41.

    Chromogenic films - Ilford XP2 Super (35mm and 120) and Kodak TMAX BW400CN (35mm only.)

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    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    To do it right you would buy sample of each film you might want to use, shoot it, and then judge which you like best. Same goes for workflow - how you make prints (scan or darkroom, printing technique and materials). Otherwise you'll just be using someone's palette without knowing the options.

    If you just want to start, shoot color neg, it gives you the most options going forward. But until you shoot a few kinds of B&W film you won't know the trade-offs. Personally I think color neg to B&W is great, but I pay attention to the color controls and curves when converting from color to B&W.

    All NIK and other conversion software does is package those choices and commands to make it easier for you but it is more powerful to experiment and understand what you're doing rather than selecting some canned do-all. I wouldn't waste the energy learning about it when you might just as well master those commands in Photoshop and know what the Hell you're doing. It would probably take you an equal amount of time and save you a few bucks too.

  10. #10

    Re: For BW project, shoot color or BW?

    thanks Frank, well that's why I'm posting! I'd love to hear others who have done this simple experiment and hear their opinions. You have not shot in color 4x5 and then scanned, then made it a BW and then printed?

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