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Thread: Protar Madness?

  1. #1
    Foamer
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    Oct 2010
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    South Dakota
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    Protar Madness?

    For the past year & half I was concentrating on buying a few pre-Civil War lenses, and I think I now have what I want. After buying a few of the ancients, I started buying a select few of the "classics". By classic I'm meaning lenses in early shutters made roughly 1900 to 1930. So far, I have a 1906 DAGOR 3 5/8" in dialset, a 1914 Zeiss Tessar 165mm in Compound, and a 1922 150mm Heliar in dialset. I'm looking for a Velostigmat, and also an early Protar. The Velostigmat will be no problem--they are plentiful and cheap. The Protars seem plentiful, but not cheap! Exactly what is the deal on Protars? Why are they going for crazy prices like the soft focus lenses? What I had in mind was an 1890s Protar with the wheel stop, and either already mounted in something like Prosch shutter, or I have it adapted for a Copal. I think it would be cool to have a Protar; it's the lens that changed everything around 1892. At $1,200 though, I have to wonder what makes it more special than the other anastigmats of the era?


    Kent in SD
    In contento ed allegria
    Notte e di vogliam passar!

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Denmark
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    Re: Protar Madness?

    I havn't noticed any price rise in the early Protars, which, of course, are called by another name before 1900!
    I think it really depends on which series you are interested in.
    I can understand the lure of the series VIIa where the individual cells (series VII) will cover very large plate sizes very well.
    The early series of protars (and there are many!) are really quite similar to each other - only the F18 series V being able to offer something that the Dagor can't!

    If you can't find a reasonable "Zeiss" protar/anastigmat it is well worth looking for the licensed makers like Ross, Voigtländer and Krauss. I have had all of these "anastigmats" in my hands and can confirm that they are at least as good as the products from Jena.

  3. #3
    funkadelic
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    Re: Protar Madness?

    B&L was a large producer of them on this side of the pond.

  4. #4

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    Jun 2010
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    229

    Re: Protar Madness?

    I've been watching auctions for protars (and clones). There are a bunch available now, but all have ridiculous starting bids or buy-it-now prices and aren't getting any nibbles. Some have been up for months. Eventually some dealer who combs the estate sales will put one up with a reasonable starting bid and people will be all over it. I'm guessing the winning bid will be less than the starting bid for the ones up now, but will probably still be more than an equivalent focal length used Symmar.

    I guess Protars are getting into the same category as Dagors. The only way to get one at a decent price will be to find an early uncoated ugly one in an old unreliable shutter.

  5. #5

    Join Date
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    Greenbank, WA
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    2,605

    Re: Protar Madness?

    I think the observation about the price rise is quite correct. Within the last 10 years or so I slowly put together every cell I would want for protar sets for 4X5 through 8X10. Compared to a decade ago, prices are through the roof. Why?

    Part of it (a big part of it) is that eBay has gone from a true auction site to predominantly "buy it now" items, with bids entertained. The auctions that would allow one to get a good deal are more or less gone. Starting prices for a common 11"/11" set or the 11/13 set seem to be simply ludicrous, particularly given the fact that many of these highly priced lens are still in their original notoriously trouble-prone original shutters. The fact that so many of them hang on the site for a year or so suggests the asking price is out of line with the market. Lots of sellers have given up on eBay as well, which is a factor. Some of the focal lengths on the cells are extremely rare -- you can look at eBay for years trying to find the 5 and 7" single cells, but I don't see how that has changed in the last ten years or so, except that the variety on auction sites is certainly not what it was.

    I also think some part of the price rise reflects the unavailability of balsam fault repairs at a price that makes repairing a protar sensible. Steve Grimes' passing eliminated his reasonably priced services, and his able successors don't offer the service. Balham Ltd. has gone out of business. Remaining vendors (such as Focal Point, which is outstanding) charge what is surely a fair price for their labor (try separating, cleaning and regluing four pieces of glass sometime) but you can easily spend more on the repair than the lens. So good ones with little or no separation command a premium.

    The lenses (especially when used combined) provide a sharp, contrasty negatives, but not with a 'special effect' unique to older lenses that command high prices for that effect. The single lenses can deliver decent but not exceptional negatives, provided you adjust for focus shift and take into account some loss of sharpness at the edges. Many times I've been without a long lens and a single protar cell has saved the day, provided I work with its limitations. I've had much better luck with B&L single cells than Zeiss ones, by the way, but some people look down on the American ones. Some Zeiss cells I've tried were unusual as single cells for anything beyond contacts.

    So unless you are buying them for single cells for large coverage, what exactly are you getting that you couldn't get with a convertible Symmar? I've seen people mention the "protar look" but not specifically enough that I can tell what they think they see, and they are my most often used lenses.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    3,142

    Re: Protar Madness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Two23 View Post
    For the past year & half I was concentrating on buying a few pre-Civil War lenses, and I think I now have what I want. After buying a few of the ancients, I started buying a select few of the "classics". By classic I'm meaning lenses in early shutters made roughly 1900 to 1930. So far, I have a 1906 DAGOR 3 5/8" in dialset, a 1914 Zeiss Tessar 165mm in Compound, and a 1922 150mm Heliar in dialset. I'm looking for a Velostigmat, and also an early Protar. The Velostigmat will be no problem--they are plentiful and cheap. The Protars seem plentiful, but not cheap! Exactly what is the deal on Protars? Why are they going for crazy prices like the soft focus lenses? What I had in mind was an 1890s Protar with the wheel stop, and either already mounted in something like Prosch shutter, or I have it adapted for a Copal. I think it would be cool to have a Protar; it's the lens that changed everything around 1892. At $1,200 though, I have to wonder what makes it more special than the other anastigmats of the era?


    Kent in SD
    There were several lens designs called "Protar", not all were convertible. Many were marked "Zeiss Anastigmat", and if you do your homework, you can probably find one at a realistic price.

    Just learn a bit more than the sellers, which shouldn't be difficult.
    One man's Mede is another man's Persian.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
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    4,589

    Re: Protar Madness?

    Supply, demand. Crazy people with too much money. People buying "stuff" because they "want it" not because they need it. Have you watched the Antiques Roadshow?
    Wilhelm (Sarasota)

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    3,142

    Re: Protar Madness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill_1856 View Post
    Supply, demand. Crazy people with too much money. People buying "stuff" because they "want it" not because they need it. Have you watched the Antiques Roadshow?
    Do you mean the "Avarice Roadshow"? Not to mention all the other dreck like Pawn Stars?
    One man's Mede is another man's Persian.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    May 2006
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    1,817

    Re: Protar Madness?

    There is a nice Zeiss Anastigmat f/18 632mm on eaby over a few hours to go and the bidding was over $4,000 last time I checked.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    229

    Re: Protar Madness?

    The more I think about it, it's not just Protars or Dagors. Ebay sellers have forums, too, and I think word has got out that any old 'antique' looking lens is worth a bundle to 'collectors'. I'm seeing old Wolly Velostigmats and RRs, old Gundlach RRs, and projection lenses with absurd starting bids or BIN prices. I've come to realize the only auctions worth bidding on are the rare cases where some estate-saler puts up a lens without doing any checking for a low starting bid or BIN. These turn up from once a week to once a month.

    I think a T-R triple is a pretty good substitute for a Protar VIIa, and once in a while one of these turns up with a reasonable starting bid. I'm very happy with mine.

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