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Thread: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

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    Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    Both are in modern all-black Copal shutters. Both are in excellent condition.

    This is for landscapes and maybe some old structures... all near infinity focus.

    Please don't suggest that I test them... I will eventually. I want "average/overall/in-most-cases" information... because I may have a stellar example or a clunker in one or both cases with mine.

    Please disregard cost, size/weight, etc. They're close enough in these regards that I don't care.

    The difference in coverage (320mm vs. 380mm) might make a difference in film fog from light bouncing off the bellows but I suspect that's insignificant.

    Bottom line? Which one is sharper/contrastier within a 225mm image circle? Does one have a nicer overall look (I'll not mention bokeh) wide open... at f/11... at f/22?

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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    Bump for help.

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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    I'm the one that snagged the Kowa from Zach

    Were you really going to get two and then test each?? That seems unusually anal retentive. I don't mean any disrespect, but wouldn't it be more useful to just use whatever lens you've got? I have a 150mm G-Claron and a 150mm APO Schneider. I can see a little bit of difference in their performance at f/22, but not enough to get excited about (shooting b&w). I keep the Claron for macro though and the APO is my normal lens. Anyway, my point is, you've got two 210mm f/9 lenses. If you are shooting typical everything-in-focus landscapes at f/22 or further I don't think you're going to see ANY difference. However, the Kowa MIGHT edge out the Claron simply due to being optimized differently. My Claron is much better than the APO Schneider with macro.

    If you want nice OOF areas while in the wider aperture, personally I'd get a Symmar-S on the cheap. I've shot mine at f/8 many times and it looks great in the OOF areas, and the lens is performing fine and is sharp. I can send you a photo if you like.

    (The only reason I wanted the Kowa was for a wide on 8x10 with movements.)

    *You might want to request this moved to the Lens sub-forum
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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I'm the one that snagged the Kowa from Zach
    Then I owe you one!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Were you really going to get two and then test each?? That seems unusually anal retentive.
    Yes, it is. I can't help myself. I'm one sick puppy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    I don't mean any disrespect, but wouldn't it be more useful to just use whatever lens you've got? I have a 150mm G-Claron and a 150mm APO Schneider. I can see a little bit of difference in their performance at f/22, but not enough to get excited about (shooting b&w). I keep the Claron for macro though and the APO is my normal lens.
    No offense taken. This is why I queried regarding the differences between the 210 G-K and 210 G-C. I know they're very different lens types and I'd like to know others' experiences with them at or near infinity and at wider apertures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    Anyway, my point is, you've got two 210mm f/9 lenses.
    I have at least a half dozen 210's but I'm only concerned about the two in question. All the rest, and maybe one of these, will be for sale soon. Some of these are remnants of my buying/selling many years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    If you are shooting typical everything-in-focus landscapes at f/22 or further I don't think you're going to see ANY difference. If you want nice OOF areas while in the wider aperture, personally I'd get a Symmar-S on the cheap. I've shot mine at f/8 many times and it looks great in the OOF areas, and the lens is performing fine and is sharp. I can send you a photo if you like.
    I should clarify that I'll be shooting two different formats (4x5 and 5x12) so the lens coverage requirements are quite different. I'm trying to keep both kits as lightweight and compact as is practicable given my other criteria. If I can share one lens between both formats without any significant degradation in image quality then all the better. I probably shouldn't fret so much about excess light bouncing off the bellows since I'll be sharing 300mm and 450mm lenses between formats anyway.

    RE shooting at f/22 vs. wide open; This is where it gets a bit fuzzy. I may want to shoot at larger apertures and I want very decent performance to the corners... if that's even a sane objective on 5x12. At f/22 I'm sure you're right about performance differences, other than coverage, being insignificant.

    BTW, I may want to make REALLY BIG prints of very high quality (maybe ten feet long?). I might never make another image worthy of bothering with it but... I do want to retain that option. I'd pay a second party for an excellent drum scan and digital print.

    RE OOF areas; How I deal with focus will most certainly vary greatly depending on subject matter and what light I have to work with at that moment... and probably my attitude. I have recently taken notice of the quality of OOF areas and, frankly, it disturbs me that I can't have my cake and eat it too. The most important thing to me right now is critical sharpness, so unless someone changes the laws of optics, my only control is over aperture roundness... and maybe not that.

    I might look into getting a 210 Symmar-S but, for now, I'm just looking for input regarding these two 210's. Wading through hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts I have made some decisions based on others' knowledge and experience. For example; I've decided that even the best 90mm 6.8 Angulon ever made won't be sharp enough in the corners even though it will cover well enough on 4x5. The biggest issue with the Angulon is shooting at larger apertures. Some will call me stupid but that's my decision and I'm stickin' to it.

    If the Graphic Kowa meets or beats the G-Claron in every significant way then, with the benefit of greater coverage and, assuming that extra coverage won't noticeably fog the film in a 4x5 camera, then I should sell all the other 210's and keep the G-K. If the G-Caron is sharper in the center and the excess coverage won't fog the film then I should keep both. If both will significantly fog film in a 4x5 then I should relegate the G-K to 5x12 and use a 203 Ektar on 4x5... or maybe a 200

    The problem is there are some things I've never considered and many more things I never knew. So all guidance and opinion are greatly appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    The only reason I wanted the Kowa was for a wide on 8x10 with movements.
    Me too but for 5x12 (stitched).

    Quote Originally Posted by Corran View Post
    You might want to request this moved to the Lens sub-forum
    Thanks, I'll ask about that.

  5. #5
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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    Ah, the 5x12 thing is important. I think the Claron will just barely cover 8x10, and only stopped down to at LEAST f/22, so if you are pushing it to 12 inches, I'm going to suggest you simply ditch the Claron. And for 4x5 I will continue to suggest the Symmar-S. I had an older one for a bit with a silver-rimmed Copal #1 and it had a more circular iris opening, IIRC, so that might be the one to find. Or spend the big bucks for a Heliar or something - I keep seeing such nice images from those. I had to restrain myself when a 210mm came up for sale. However I bet that 210mm f/4.5 Velostigmat would be almost as good. Which reminds me, I was going to buy that one from Jon in the classifieds, if I can find that post.
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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    Corran... Thanks for the suggestion. I already have a 210 Apo Symmar sitting here. What bothers me about it is the size and weight. The point of having a separate 4x5 kit is to keep it compact and lightweight. I think the G-K is about 1/3 of and the G-C is about 1/2 of the size and weight of the Apo-S. The Apo-S is definitely a better performer than either the G-K or G-C on 5x7 or smaller but is it really that much better? Maybe it is!! Also, maybe the Symmar-S is smaller than the Apo... I'll look. BTW, I don't really need the brightness of faster lenses since I'll be shooting landscapes in daylight.

    RE Heliar lenses; I've never used one but the little 200mm Nikkor-M here is a Tessar and the Kodak 203 is a dialyte. Of the two I'm pretty darned sure I'll prefer the latter. I'll take another peek at Heliar designs.

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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    The Symmar-S has 77mm filters, the same as the APO. I think they're probably the same size, or close to it. It's kind of a large lens, which does bug me occasionally. So yes, if you're going for small, the Claron in 4x5 would be great - but while you might be okay with the dimmer ground-glass, if you want to shoot at f/8, you just can't do it! For some (most?) that's not a problem. Me, I like to have that option.

    If the 200mm Nikkor is anything like the little 300mm M it's probably a stunning lens...
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    Re: Image Quality of 210mm Graphic Kowa vs. 210mm G-Claron

    Performance is my "primary" concern but size/weight are definitely very important. I often don't ambulate very well these days so I'm building kits that I can handle.

    If the G-Claron is really that bad at larger apertures then it's not the lens for me. However, this is a late-model G-Claron that was factory-mounted in a late all-black Copal shutter. I can't remember for certain but I believe these are optimized for infinity or close enough.

    The Nikkor 200mm is reputed to be every bit as good as its bigger brothers but, being a Tessar, isn't necessarily all that sharp in the corners until stopped down. It's slightly smaller/lighter than the Kodak 203 though.

    The Kodak 203, being a very well corrected infinity-optimized dialyte, is often reputed to be at its sharpest wide open from center to corner but is also excellent stopped down.

    The 210 Apo Symmar is a big/heavy beast but "probably" performs the best of all up to 5x7.

    How these compare on 4x5 (with movements and at various apertures) to the Graphic Kowa... is the real question.

    ETA: Size/weight came into the mix because we added a 210 Apo Symmar. Really though it's not a player in this game... just too big. The 200 Nikkor-M and 203 Ektar entered into the mix because... well they just did. Truthfully, I'm making my decisions by process of elimination... this after a process of addition. I don't know if that makes any sense to others but it's the way my mind works... add all the possible team players one-by-one until all the qualified members are present... then eliminate them one-by-one until the all-star is found.

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