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Thread: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

  1. #1

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    4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    Hello,
    Other than a complete kit, what are the parts needed to go from 4x5 to 8x10 on a Sinar f2?
    Obviously, the rear standard and GG assembly/film holder back, the bellows, and then what?
    A different front standard also?
    Thanks, just looking for now, but it may be a possible (near?)future purchase...

  2. #2

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    I've been looking at a lot of Sinar stuff online lately, but I've never actually seen one. My impression is that you'll need the rear frame and back and bellows. You can use the same standard bearer for the rear frame, and I think 8x10 and 4x5 use the same front end. I could easily be wrong about any or all of the above. Hopefully someone who actually knows what they're talking about will post.

  3. #3
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    I have two F2's, a 4x5 and a "real" 8x10.
    It's a "real" 8x10 because it came from the factory that way. It wasn't built up in the field.

    The factory-configured 8x10 uses the heavy-duty standards.
    The front one (431.62) has much more rise than the one used on the 4x5 (431.61).
    The rear standard (433.68) is heavier than that used on the 4x5, providing more rigid support for the back and frame.

    On the 9x10, the rods supporting the rear standard are 20mm in diameter, while the front rods are 15.25mm.
    In contrast, the rods supporting the 4x5 standards (front and rear) are 10mm in diameter.

    It's possible to build up an 8x10 using the 4x5 standards, but I expect the results will be less than satisfactory.
    I recently looked at a Frankenstein 8x10 on Craigslist that was built from parts.
    The front rise was not adequate to even center the lens on the 8x10 back, and certainly would not work properly.

    Note that the 8x10 metering back is larger than the non-metering version, so the frame and bellows are unique to each.
    The metering back was standard on the F2, while the non-metering back was standard on the F and optional (?) on the F2.

    I suggest you download a copy of "Sinar Code". It describes every item in the Sinar product line (P2/F2 vintage).

    - Leigh
    If you believe you can, or you believe you can't... you're right.

  4. #4

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    Leigh,
    Thanks for this information!

  5. #5

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    If you price things out and watch eBay, you usually do better purchasing entire cameras and then, if you find yourself with leftover parts you can always unload them. For example, if you try to buy a decent 8x10 Sinar bellows individually, it will cost about $350. An F2 8x10 rear end, if you ever see one for sale, might be $400 - and the front end may cost about that much too. But then you will also see the an 8x10 F2 sell for under a grand, so do the math.

    The most common mistake is trying to mix and match the 8x10 backs and bellows with and without the metering back option. They are different sizes. Plus the metering back is silly, especially with a field camera.

    Also the "too short" 4x5 F2 front or the smaller 4x5 rear standard is often bundled with the cameras out of ignorance or deceit. Watch out for that! The sellers will all plead stupidity.

    The Sinar system is great but the format changes are not the best value, it more that you can get cheap rails, use the 4x5 standards as intermediate supports and lenshades, etc.

    Remember the Swiss also invented LSD so they made a few wacky decisions.

  6. #6

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    Having once owned an f2 8X10 back and bellows, I can attest that the combination with the 4X5 front standard is a no-go. I second what Leigh and Frank said - either buy a complete factory 8X10, or don't bother. BTW, I don't think I've ever seen the special front standard for sale separately and I have kind of watched for them. Also, almost every 8X10 f2 I have seen for sale is as Frank describes, with the wrong front standard.

  7. #7

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    Shoot!

    Thanks to the OP for this post and to those who have responded with valuable information....however it has made me realize that my 8x10 F2 was sold to me with a 4x5 front. Funny too, that it was a reputable camera shop that sold me the camera, though I believe that they didn't know any better as they recently sold my friend a 4x5 "F2" that was really an Alpina..makes me wonder...

    I can say however, that I have not had any problems, though I have wondered in the past why there is only about an inch of front rise. So, while I have made it work, I agree that it is not ideal and will be looking to get a proper front standard. Especially since I am looking into getting longer lenses and the extra rigidity of the special standard would be very nice.

    So...since the special 8x10 F2 standards are hard to come by.....I have a weird question. I know the Sinar C has a P rear and F front.....but is there any reason I couldn't use my F2 8x10 meter back rear and a P2 8x10 special standard? It may seem weird, but if there isnt any ill effects you know about I may try it. I use mostly front movements and the smooth geared movements of the P2 in the front would be great. Is there any reason why standard movements in the rear combined with asymmetrical movements in the front would be a bad idea?

    Sorry if this is too off topic, id be happy to start a new thread with the above question if that makes more sense.

    Thanks,
    Adam
    ----------------------
    http://adamsatushek.com

  8. #8

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    Yes, it does seem cheaper to buy another full set camera.
    I have been watching the bay for prices.
    May even go with a totally different camera even.

    Let's keep the thread going, it is related, and I have a hard time keeping up with all the informations.

    Quote Originally Posted by adam satushek View Post
    Sorry if this is too off topic, id be happy to start a new thread with the above question if that makes more sense.
    Thanks,
    Adam

  9. #9
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    The early style C had a P rear with overlength rods on a 4x5 front end. Not ideal. The later true 8x10 F used larger dia. steel rather than aluminum front rods for superior rigidity.
    There are all kinds of ways you can configure these, but not all are ideal by any means.

  10. #10

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    Re: 4x5 Sinar f2 to 8x10, what is needed?

    That's the value of this forum, the official literature that Sinar has online would be difficult to navigate, if it even still exists. Since most of the Sinar parts changed slightly over the years, there are a fair number of cautions to navigate as you assemble a system.

    The "unlimited expandability" is a good selling point but in practice it only means that you can extend the rails and bellows inexpensively. Otherwise you're better off just buying a good 4x5 and a good 8x10 (or whatever format) without fear of mixing brands since the expensive "core" parts are not interchangeable.

    I say that as a fan of the Sinar cameras in general, they are a good value and useful even if you already have a field camera.

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