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Thread: Technical questions concerning an image...

  1. #1

    Technical questions concerning an image...

    I've been looking at some wonderful work by a photographer on flickr. I'd like to post a link to one of his images and ask a few technical questions. I wasn't too sure if this were appropriate or not but after inquiring, I'm assured that there is nothing wrong in doing this as long as the original image isn't posted directly in the post; a link to the flickr page would be fine. If the photographer is a forum member and objects, I'll remove this post immediately.

    Now for the questions...

    Image: http://www.flickr.com/photos/edunbar...7629451316003/

    The subject matter is terrific. The framing is perfect in my opinion. The mood of the shot is spot on; it's a wonderful image. But, I'm wondering about the use of the 'Zone System' in this picture. What values were placed where by the artist? Was the Zone System utilized at all in your opinions? The windows look a bit blown out. Assuming this wasn't intended, what could the photographer have done to prevent this if very bright light was shining through those windows? What about the use of a filter? Which filter and why?

    Also the whole image, as incredible as I feel it is, looks just a tiny bit flat to my eye, no punch/contrast. It makes me think he may have metered the machinery and just exposed without putting the darker areas on Zone III. Or, maybe he did put the darker areas on Zone III and that is why the windows got blown out (or clipped). What is the best term; blown or clipped?

    Anyway, I love the image and I'm interested in the forums opinions.

    Again, the photographer didn't ask that his work be critiqued, and if he is a forum member and objects, I apologize with all sincerity, and I'll pull the post. If he isn't a forum member, I don't think theres any harm in discussing the technical aspects of this image.

  2. #2

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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    You've already asked the photographer all these questions?

  3. #3
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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    First, this is a small digital representation, IMO you cannot assume this is what a fine print of the image looks like. As far as the windows go, without knowing what the metering was, they may of had to go "blown out" to get the detail in the darker areas like in the area of the background machine against the wall when shooting a single exposure. One solution would be to cover up the windows with neutral density material (plastic sheeting available in varying densities), the other would be to take different exposures and metering one for the windows, one for the machinery, etc. and then sandwiching them together or scanning and then making them different layers in prep for printing. And you could also meter for the windows and light the inside with strobes to bring more of a balance. I am sure a professional architectural photographer would have more answers, but the photographer who made the image would be who I would talk with first.

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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    There are a variety of considerations at play here.

    The limiting factor IMO here is the paper and the look you want, not so much the negative.

    Looking flat can sometimes be addressed by simply printing a bit darker globally or it can be done by increasing the local contrast rate.

    Printing a bit darker can give an image more snap and can print more detail in highlight areas, but not always.

    Using a harder paper grade can also add snap. Similarly plus development for the film can add more local snap to a print. The problem is that both of these options reduce the range of what will straight print from the scene. Plus development and harder paper naturally print less of the original scene, detail in highlights or shadows or both will fall outside a straight print's limits.

    Using a softer paper grade can get you more detail in the highlights, those windows you are concerned with as well as in the shadows. Similarly minus development of the negatives will allow you to straight print more of the original scene's highlight and shadow detail. This comes at a price though, local contrast drops, so you may need to print even darker or it may just look too grey.

    My take on the zone system and it's adjustments is that it is there to make printing easier. It helps us get the basics of the photo to print properly but by no means eliminates the need for burning or dodging.

    If I were printing the example you provided my next print would simply be darker. If that got the basics right I'd burn the windows in a bit. If not I'd experiment with paper grade.
    You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus. ~ Mark Twain

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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    My guess, and I am guessing, is that the choices Earl made favored detail. It's a very high dynamic range image, and making the dark regions darker would have subdued detail there, but as-is, any highlights without detail/ clipped don't have important detail -- they're just light sources in the image. I like the treatment here -- it has a very light, silvery, etched feel. I'm sure it could be made to look more "normal", but I'm not sure that would improve the mage.

  6. #6

    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    I think I agree Jay. It does have a very nice feel to it. It's just a nice image.

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    Thumbs up Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    Thanks for all the compliments. This image was made in the mid-1980s, and I wasn't terribly careful in keeping records of exposure, development, etc. There may be some notes somewhere, but I have moved so many times that they are either lost or buried.

    Jay is correct in that I exposed for detail, trying to capture as much shadow detail as possible, with highlight detail not deemed as visually important. IIRC, I used Rodinal 1:100, which is compensating and I likely pulled development a bit, too, even though "modern" films don't respond well to plus and minus development as older emulsions.

    Originally prints were made on Zone VI Brilliant (usually grade 2,) developing in Weston's Amidol. I found that combination to give me the shadow values and richness in the blacks that I preferred, with the Amidol giving me some flexibility in highlight control without reducing "micro contrast". Were I to print this with today's materials, I would probably using split-grade printing. I'm a novice at scanning and post processing, so I'm sure there is lots more that could be done to produce a very good digital print.

    On a side note, I have a couple of new projects in mind (one has actually started, albeit fitfully,) and will be shooting more 4x5 in the coming months and few years. To accommodate the advance of age, I have sold the Toyo 45A and Zone VI tripod, and have a Chamonix on order. I need to select and order an appropriate carbon fibre tripod as well. That choice currently has me stumped!

    Thanks again for the compliments and kind words, especially the opening post. I truly appreciate it.

    Earl

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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    well, that takes the guesswork out of it, doesn't it?

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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    Welcome, Earl! I'd love to know more about your new LF projects. I take it it's been a while since you shot much 4x5?

  10. #10

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    Re: Technical questions concerning an image...

    Jay et al,

    You are correct that I haven't done a lot of 4x5 work in quite a while, for a variety of reasons, but now my interest and motivation has revived.

    A few years ago I started a project (which is posted on my flickr stream) called "South Wedge Morning". On many weekend mornings I would take an OM or rangefinder kit to the South Wedge neighbourhood of Rochester. South Wedge is a neighbourhood "in recovery", and has had a delightful mix of people and personalities. Keith McManus (http://www.flickr.com/people/wkmpellucid/) lived in South Wedge when he taught full-time at R.I.T. I'm sure the history of the South Wedge is filled with lots of interesting people and characters, but not being native to Rochester nor a historian, I am far from a good source of information; I just like the neighbourhood.

    I worked away from Rochester for 10 months which put South Wedge Morning on hold at the very best, and since I've been back, it seems I've been either too busy or two exhausted to renew it. Recently I purchased an Epson V750 scanner to replace my old CanonScan FS2710, which was reliable but required a SCSI card upgrade when I upgraded our main computer -- plus I got a MacBook Air for myself, which doesn't support SCSI with any ease. I chose the 750 because it supported 4x5 scans in one pass, and came with the fluid mount.

    Once I started scanning some of my 4x5 archive, my desire to shoot 4x5 was re-ignited. Somehow it occurred to me that making portraits on 4x5 of the residents of South Wedge might make a really interesting project. Ranging from the disenfranchised to artists to small business owners to academics and students, it feels like a challenge but full of potential.

    Due to a physical disability and the curious phenomenon of aging, I made a semi-impulsive decision to ditch my Toyo 45A and Zone VI "small" tripod for a much lighter kit. One of my contacts on flickr and Facebook is Fernando (Nando) Gomes Semedo, and when I saw his Chamonix 45N-2 kit, I chatted with him in email and quickly decided to get one. I didn't want to take forever considering innumerable options; Nando's opinion was good enough for me.

    The other project I've started, along with Jan Normandale, is the Oxford-Perth Project, a documentation of Oxford and Perth counties in Southern Ontario. If I am going to use the 4x5 much for that project, which requires more physical activity and exertion, I need a lighter kit. There's a tag for Oxford-Perth on my flickr stream.

    My biggest challenge will be time. I work full-time, so weekends and PTO days are the only way I can accomplish these projects. I'm also adjusting my materials, trying out slower films and different developers, including tanning developers, so there is a lot of change to manage.

    Thanks again for the kind words and welcome. I spend most of my time on RFF, so I may not contribute frequently, but I'll try.

    Earl

    PS -- looking for recommendations on a light weight yet sturdy (probably carbon fibre) tripod & head to go with the Chamonix. Cost is an object!

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