Trying to sort out Dagors

[E. von Hoegh]

This from Graflex.org:

Zeiss continued to make Dagors and they were in the Zeiss catalogue at least up to the middle thirties. These are known as "Berlin Dagors" and carry the Zeiss-Goerz name. A lens marked Goerz Berlin will be pre-merger. U.S. made lenses are marked "C.P. Goerz Am.Op.Co." Older ones will usually also be marked Series III. [Alternate view: About 1950 the Burke & James company assembled some Dagors from parts they obtained from somewhere and sold these as "Berlin Dagors.'' These do not have a good reputation, and are rare.]

It seems there are "Berlin Dagors" that are not the dreaded B&J "Berlin Dagors". The "Berlin Dagor" below looks far too early to be a post-WWII B&J Berlin Dagor. This is the sort of thing I want to sort out.

Mark, the lens in your photo is a C.P. Goerz Berlin Dagor from the mid to late teens of the last century.I have it's earlier twin, #226383. It is a real Goerz lens; the B&J bastard Dagors ALWAYS have a joker (such as "series III" when the German would be "serie", focal length in inches, etc.) in the markings that betrays their illegitimate origins.
I also have one of the last CPG Berlin Dagors made before the merger, a 30 cm marked "C.P. Goerz Berlin Dagor F:30cm 657010" in a Compound shutter.

Believe it or not, the B&J bastards are not always junk. I know of a 10 3/4 f7.7 (the f7.7 signifying that it is a very- pre 1895 or so- early set of cells, remounted) that is every bit as good as any Goerz production Dagor. And it is a real Dagor, just remounted by someone who didn't alwys do a great job. The Berlin Dagors had a bit better QC than the NYC Dagors. Goerz NY seems to have had some troubles in that area at one time.

Edit - there are two different lenses in the photos you posted. One has aluminium/alloy cells, the other has brass cells.

[Drew Wiley]

Ron Wisner wrote a brief summary of dagors for View Camera magazine. Perhaps someone
remembers the specific issue. Otherwise, Kingslake's book is good for general patent history
and synonyms for similar early designs. Actual usage pros/cons is best obtained from actual users, like here on this forum. My personal experience is based on late model dagors mfg by Kern of Switzerland for Schneider, including the last multicoated ones which were the end of this nearly hundred year heritage.

[imagedowser]

View Camera Mag, Article on Dagor Lenses May/June 1992...

[Two23]

I had the good fortune to sit with David Plowden during a photo convention in Chicago last Saturday. I mentioned O.W.Link and his DAGOR. Plowden told me that he too liked DAGORs, but was also upset with them at the time. He said that Goerz was once putting a red ring around their lenses as part of the design. They once ran out of red and put a gold ring around the lenses. He said they then realized they could charge a lot more for the gold ring, even though it was the same exact lens. I have a 3 3/34 inch DAGOR made in Berlin in compound shutter, serial dates it to 1906. Looks like the DAGOR has been around for quite a long time.


Kent in SD

[goamules]

The big uncertainty I have is the so called Gold Rim Dagors, which if I'm reading correctly were not called that by Goerz, but they did call some Golden Dagors. Does anyone have a Goerz catalog or advertisement from the Golden Dagor era, with pictures? That title is found in some 50s ads in Google Books, but only snippet view. I want to see what they look like in the front based on the advertisements, not on internet anecdotes. I see a lot of Dagors with various gold rims, probably a dozen on Ebay right now, and find it hard to believe there was a cottage industry of elves polishing paint off regular lenses.

[Bernice Loui]

Gold Rim, Gold dot .... it was marketing by Goerz.

What I learned from using and testing dagors over the years is there are variations to each one that passed my way. Some gold rim dagors performed poorly, while other non-beautified rim and OLD dagors performed great. Better to test yourself before ownership. This turns out to be the only way to really know the personality of a specific lens.

Similar is true for Red Dot Artars, serial number above 78xxx.. is believe to be coated, yet I have a number of non Red Dots serial number 77xxx.. that are coated. The same variations for Artars also holds true, each should be tested before considering ownership.

What I do not understand is why and how Plasmats have pretty much taken over the majority of modern LF lenses, given many times LF lenses are used at apertures f11 and smaller for most work. Exception being portraits and the want for that look in which case a Tessar or Heliar or Gasuss (large, heavy and lots of elements to cause flare, which demands multi-coating to control properly) design may be preferred.



Bernice

The big uncertainty I have is the so called Gold Rim Dagors, which if I'm reading correctly were not called that by Goerz, but they did call some Golden Dagors. Does anyone have a Goerz catalog or advertisement from the Golden Dagor era, with pictures? That title is found in some 50s ads in Google Books, but only snippet view. I want to see what they look like in the front based on the advertisements, not on internet anecdotes. I see a lot of Dagors with various gold rims, probably a dozen on Ebay right now, and find it hard to believe there was a cottage industry of elves polishing paint off regular lenses.

[Bernice Loui]

BTW, Dagors might have focus shift. Be aware of this when testing/evaluating any specific Dagor.


Bernice

[neil poulsen]

Hi Mark,

I have a Gold Dot Dagor, labeled Goerz Optical Co. Inc., made in Switzerland:



Don't know if this is what you're after or not.

- Leigh

Interesting. I've not seen one of these. I thought the "Swiss" Dagors were the 14" Dagors sold by Schneider.

[goamules]

Bernice, thanks for offering your experience. Are you saying you found variation from one of the world's best lens maker, especially ones made in the 50s and 60s at the height of optical science? I know all good lens manufacturers, even in the 1800s, did extensive tests on each lens, documenting it's quality, before letting it out the door. I've also read that the Gold types have been tested on some kind of spin or collomator and had less variation than any other lens made at the time. Finally, some anecdotes say the Gold types were hand selected as the best of best (though I doubt that one - they were all probably good, and the "Gold" was added to make them sell better). If you google, you find the discussions about testing results, from people involved back in the day.

[rdenney]

On the question of plasmats, one should note that a plasmat is an air-spaced dagor, but with more design degrees of freedom. Coatings were required, however, for plasmats to be reach their potential, which explains their rise in popularity starting in the 50's.

Rick "remembering from Kingslake" Denney